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Removal of Negative Feedback Entry on BB due to Ambiguity of TimeFrame regarding Complaints
Thread poster: Yasutomo Kanazawa
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 13:00
German to English
+ ...
In Sep 27, 2017

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Michael Newton wrote:

If I had a major beef with an agency, e.g., a huge amount of money owed, I would go onto the Internet and place a dedicated complaint about the agency. I think they would react quickly. I too am thinking seriously about not renewing my membership.


Where in the Internet? Because a colleague from the USA owes me 1650 dollars and disappeared, so I am interested in knowing where I can post a feedback.

Many thanks

[Edited at 2017-09-27 15:13 GMT]


http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx. or http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm. No self-imposed "outsourcer privacy rules", no censoring, no bossy and arrogant attitudes.


 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:00
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Thank you Maija Sep 27, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx. or http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm. No self-imposed "outsourcer privacy rules", no censoring, no bossy and arrogant attitudes.


Many tanks


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 12:00
Member
English to Italian
And more Sep 27, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Michael Newton wrote:

If I had a major beef with an agency, e.g., a huge amount of money owed, I would go onto the Internet and place a dedicated complaint about the agency. I think they would react quickly. I too am thinking seriously about not renewing my membership.


Where in the Internet? Because a colleague from the USA owes me 1650 dollars and disappeared, so I am interested in knowing where I can post a feedback.

Many thanks

[Edited at 2017-09-27 15:13 GMT]


http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx. or http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm. No self-imposed "outsourcer privacy rules", no censoring, no bossy and arrogant attitudes.


I also remember a "translationethics" (not sure it's still maintained, though) and there also are groups on LinkedIn, and probably elsewhere.


 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 13:00
German to English
+ ...
Yes Sep 27, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Maija Cirule wrote:

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Michael Newton wrote:

If I had a major beef with an agency, e.g., a huge amount of money owed, I would go onto the Internet and place a dedicated complaint about the agency. I think they would react quickly. I too am thinking seriously about not renewing my membership.


Where in the Internet? Because a colleague from the USA owes me 1650 dollars and disappeared, so I am interested in knowing where I can post a feedback.

Many thanks

[Edited at 2017-09-27 15:13 GMT]


http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx. or http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm. No self-imposed "outsourcer privacy rules", no censoring, no bossy and arrogant attitudes.


I also remember a "translationethics" (not sure it's still maintained, though) and there also are groups on LinkedIn, and probably elsewhere.


on LinkedIn are at least two groups: Unacceptable Translation Rates Naming & Shaming Group and Translation scams, non-payers and frauds, also without restrictions regarding the names of agencies and senior managers.

[Edited at 2017-09-27 17:43 GMT]


 
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 20:00
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
@Everyone Sep 28, 2017

The outcome ended up in disappointment...

 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 13:00
German to English
+ ...
Don't allow Sep 28, 2017

Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:

The outcome ended up in disappointment...





to treat you like a beggar who cannot be a chooser. You have paid for services to be rendered in your interests not the other way around.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 12:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Tell us more? Sep 28, 2017

Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
The outcome ended up in disappointment...


This means that both ProZ.com staff and the agency believes that the agency did complain in a timely manner. Can you speculate about why they would think that?


 
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 20:00
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Administrative action Sep 28, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:

Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
The outcome ended up in disappointment...


This means that both ProZ.com staff and the agency believes that the agency did complain in a timely manner. Can you speculate about why they would think that?


Yesterday I copied and pasted the reply I got from Proz's site staff, but was hidden due to violation of discussing and disclosing administrative actions. I edited three times deleting the names of the outsourcer in question but tried to write in detail, but to no avail. Therefore, I just posted the above comment without elaborating or disclosing what kind of correspondence we exchanged.

Sadly enough, I have to conclude that you are right about the staff believing that the outsourcer made a complaint in a timely manner, although it was 22 days after delivery, which in my opinion is not what one would say shortly after delivery. I can't speculate why Proz overruled my complaints, but honestly I gave up on rebutting and exchanging replies because I got discouraged by Proz's decision.


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 12:00
Member
English to Italian
Absurd and surreal Sep 28, 2017

Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:

Yesterday I copied and pasted the reply I got from Proz's site staff, but was hidden due to violation of discussing and disclosing administrative actions. I edited three times deleting the names of the outsourcer in question but tried to write in detail, but to no avail. Therefore, I just posted the above comment without elaborating or disclosing what kind of correspondence we exchanged.


The rationale for that rule is:

"5 - Why should discussion of administrative actions be carried out through the support system and not in forums?

Moderating site forums is not an easy task. Sometimes, moderators may face a situation in a thread that they feel is not correct and that requires immediate action. Also, it may happen that, when deciding on the most appropriate actions to take in such threads, no other fellow moderator is around to check, leading the moderator to take honest and well-meant actions that they consider most appropriate.

These actions, however, may prove to be incorrect when evaluated later, without the pressure, and this is why contacting site staff to request the re-evaluation of administrative actions taken by moderators is encouraged. Experience has demonstrated that discussing moderators' actions in the forums basically produces more ill feelings without solving the issues at hand.

Reporting via the support system what may be considered improper actions by moderators allows site staff to look at the issue and provide a "second opinion" that tries to be calm and objective."
http://www.proz.com/faq/113231#113231

Obviously no one here had criticized or was going to criticize moderators or 'moderators' actions', as mentioned in the FAQ answer quoted above (which is supposed to be the "clarification" of rule 8).

Discussing (and even criticizing) ProZ's own (not a single moderator's or staff member's) stance on certain matters of interest to every user of the site is a different matter entirely, and censoring that (why?) truly seems absurd and surreal, also considering that no member of the staff deigned to write here on such a relevant issue, which directly impacts on the reliability, trustworthiness and credibility of the BB as a risk limiting tool.

[Edited at 2017-09-28 12:20 GMT]


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:00
French to English
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In memoriam
Inconsitency in application of BB rules? Checking the Blue Board today. Sep 28, 2017

Thank you for your explanation, Yasutomo. I'm sorry to hear that the outcome of your investigations was disappointing and you still aren't allowed to make a BB entry for this outsourcer. A pity - it would certainly have been of value to other translators.
There does seem to be some inconsistency in the way Proz (or its moderators?) apply the BB rules.
Today, I looked at all the outsourcers for which calls for BB entries had been made (I receive a list of them each morning). I note th
... See more
Thank you for your explanation, Yasutomo. I'm sorry to hear that the outcome of your investigations was disappointing and you still aren't allowed to make a BB entry for this outsourcer. A pity - it would certainly have been of value to other translators.
There does seem to be some inconsistency in the way Proz (or its moderators?) apply the BB rules.
Today, I looked at all the outsourcers for which calls for BB entries had been made (I receive a list of them each morning). I note that several of them have recently been given low scores and negative comments by translators about late payment, not replying to reminders, etc. which are there for all to see - apparently unedited. In other cases, a low score has been given but the comments box is empty, except for "[view edits]". By clicking on "[view edits]", you can see the previous comments the translator had made. In other cases, the translator has given a score but has left the comments box blank.
All the above seems to indicate inconsistency by Proz and is certainly bewildering and somewhat mysterious for translators seeking guidance about the reliability and honesty of outsourcers. As I and others have said "à maintes reprises", this lessens the value of the Blue Board and, to a degree, defeats its purpose.
Yes, digging a veritable salt mine is advisable when assessing Blue Board records. An apparently flawless record may not be as pristine as it appears. Who knows how many would-be entries/comments such as yours have been refused?
Trusting you've plenty of other good and reliable clients.





[Edited at 2017-09-28 12:23 GMT]
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Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 11:00
Danish to English
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What does "timely" mean? Sep 28, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:

This means that both ProZ.com staff and the agency believes that the agency did complain in a timely manner. Can you speculate about why they would think that?


The whole problem is that Proz staff refuse to say what "timely manner" and "shortly after" mean, but if a translator is to be sure feedback cannot be removed because of abusive complaints, then they need to be told how long to wait after a bad experience before posting feedback (unless otherwise agreed between the parties). That would in no way interfere with outsourcers' legitimate rights to complain about bad quality. I don't see how a clear deadline could be harmful to an honest and professional outsourcer.

So why do Proz staff insist on such vague terms? The only people that benefit from this lack of clarity are dodgy outsourcers.


 
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 20:00
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Jenny, for the encouraging words Sep 28, 2017

Jenny Forbes wrote:

Thank you for your explanation, Yasutomo. I'm sorry to hear that the outcome of your investigations was disappointing and you still aren't allowed to make a BB entry for this outsourcer. A pity - it would certainly have been of value to other translators.
There does seem to be some inconsistency in the way Proz (or its moderators?) apply the BB rules.
Today, I looked at all the outsourcers for which calls for BB entries had been made (I receive a list of them each morning). I note that several of them have recently been given low scores and negative comments by translators about late payment, not replying to reminders, etc. which are there for all to see - apparently unedited. In other cases, a low score has been given but the comments box is empty, except for "[view edits]". By clicking on "[view edits]", you can see the previous comments the translator had made. In other cases, the translator has given a score but has left the comments box blank.
All the above seems to indicate inconsistency by Proz and is certainly bewildering and somewhat mysterious for translators seeking guidance about the reliability and honesty of outsourcers. As I and others have said "à maintes reprises", this lessens the value of the Blue Board and, to a degree, defeats its purpose.
Yes, digging a veritable salt mine is advisable when assessing Blue Board records. An apparently flawless record may not be as pristine as it appears. Who knows how many would-be entries/comments such as yours have been refused?
Trusting you've plenty of other good and reliable clients.





[Edited at 2017-09-28 12:23 GMT]


Warning other LSPs to watch out for bad payers/dishonest agencies is one of the reasons I use the BB. I also refer to them like many other people do when I get inquiries from new clients to check them out.

BB used to be different in the old days. Up till a several years ago, a comment of "Write me personally for details" are not allowed now. There are things which one cannot post (mostly negative comments) about particular clients, and leaving a comment like the above would help other LSPs to inquire me in private email about what really happened. I used to receive few emails from peers asking me about what went on between my client and myself, but not any more.

BB is starting to get more difficult to use. I get lots of inquiries from clients, and leaving negative/positive feedbacks on the BB helps me refresh my memory.


 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 13:00
German to English
+ ...
Yesterday I saw Yasutomo original comment before deleting Sep 28, 2017

Thomas T. Frost wrote:

Samuel Murray wrote:

This means that both ProZ.com staff and the agency believes that the agency did complain in a timely manner. Can you speculate about why they would think that?


The whole problem is that Proz staff refuse to say what "timely manner" and "shortly after" mean, but if a translator is to be sure feedback cannot be removed because of abusive complaints, then they need to be told how long to wait after a bad experience before posting feedback (unless otherwise agreed between the parties). That would in no way interfere with outsourcers' legitimate rights to complain about bad quality. I don't see how a clear deadline could be harmful to an honest and professional outsourcer.

So why do Proz staff insist on such vague terms? The only people that benefit from this lack of clarity are dodgy outsourcers.


and, as far as I remember, the reply did say that an outsourcer is entitled to request removal of bad rating on the basis of "bad translation" after 2 months or more (something along these lines) and did not say a word about need to substantiate such a complaint. Fatboy Kim and his suit with tiny notebooks and frozen wide smiles spread across their faces spring to mind or "Maul halten und weiter dienen".


 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 11:00
Danish to English
+ ...
No need to substantiate a complaint Sep 28, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

and, as far as I remember, the reply did say that an outsourcer is entitled to request removal of bad rating on the basis of "bad translation" after 2 months or more (something along these lines) and did not say a word about need to substantiate such a complaint. Fatboy Kim and his suit with tiny notebooks and frozen wide smiles spread across their faces spring to mind or "Maul halten und weiter dienen".


Indeed there is no need to substantiate a complaint according to the rules, and Proz support has confirmed this; they don't want to judge, they say, but they still judge in their sole discretion how long time after delivery a complaint can be taken into account, refusing to give any indication of what sort of length of time they mean.

Obviously we don't want good outsourcers unfairly given bad feedback because of bad translations not paid for, but if there is a clear rule saying they have for example two months to complain if it is to be taken into account for the Blue Board, then there is no need for that to happen.

We need clear definitions so everybody knows the rules. Why is that a problem for Proz?


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:00
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
A - kind of - solution? Sep 28, 2017

As you say, Yasutomo, Proz used to allow translators to enter "please contact me for details" in the Blue Board but now that comment is not permitted. If you try it, your entry will be banned.
A solution I've used for an outsourcer who repeatedely gave me a bad time was to enter a score of 1 and make no comment at all. I'd decided I wasn't willing to work for them ever again.
It is obvious to anyone really interested in finding out about the outsourcer that there must have been a ser
... See more
As you say, Yasutomo, Proz used to allow translators to enter "please contact me for details" in the Blue Board but now that comment is not permitted. If you try it, your entry will be banned.
A solution I've used for an outsourcer who repeatedely gave me a bad time was to enter a score of 1 and make no comment at all. I'd decided I wasn't willing to work for them ever again.
It is obvious to anyone really interested in finding out about the outsourcer that there must have been a serious problem and they can contact the translator to ask what happened via his/her Proz profile, without having to be invited to do so. Several Prozians have contacted me in this way after I left a low score and no comment.
It's ridiculous that translators feel obliged to find a way round the "rules", but that's where we stand at the moment.

P.S. I'd like to stress that I've also left many positive scores and enthusiastic comments when the outsourcer deserved them!
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Removal of Negative Feedback Entry on BB due to Ambiguity of TimeFrame regarding Complaints







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