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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

Le meilleur terroir ne diffère en rien du mauvais s'il n'est cultivé.

English translation:

The best terroir is no different from a bad one, if improperly cultivated.

Added to glossary by Allison Wright (X)
Apr 10, 2011 11:50
13 yrs ago
French term

Le meilleur terroir ne diffère en rien du mauvais...

French to English Science Wine / Oenology / Viticulture Quotation
"Le meilleur terroir ne diffère en rien du mauvais s'il n'est cultivé."

This quotation is attributed to Sébastien le Pestre de Vauban (1633-1707), who apparently, distinguished himself as a military planner and engineer for Louis XIV.

I have rendered this in English as, "The best terroir is no different from an inferior one, if not cultivated."

I have seen several instances (whilst searching for verification of Vauban's name) of this sentence rendered thus:
"The best terroir does not differ from the worst if it is not cultivated."

I think this rendition is inaccurate, and possibly clumsy. Proliferation of an error does not make it correct.

I should be grateful for validation (or improvement) of my translation.

Context: In the introduction of a book chapter discussing the scientific aspects (topography, soil sciences) related to terroir.
TIA.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 The best terroir, if left uncultivated, is no different from a bad/mediocre one
3 The best land is just as good as the worst if left uncultivated
3 the best soil is no different from inferior soil until it's cutivated
3 The best land is worth no more than the worst, lest it not be cultivated.
3 The best soil differs in nothing from the worst, if it is not cultivated
2 a good land (or terroir) is a bad land 1-until you cultivate it 2-if not cultivated
References
already been translated (of course)
Change log

Apr 17, 2011 06:46: Allison Wright (X) changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/992168">Allison Wright (X)'s</a> old entry - "Le meilleur terroir ne diffère en rien du mauvais..."" to ""The best terroir is no different from a bad one, if improperly cultivated.""

Apr 17, 2011 06:46: Allison Wright (X) changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/992168">Allison Wright (X)'s</a> old entry - "Le meilleur terroir ne diffère en rien du mauvais s'il n'est cultivé..."" to ""The best terroir is no different from a bad one, if improperly cultivated.""

Discussion

Rachel Fell Apr 10, 2011:
It brings to mind the phrase "The answer lies in the soil", though more particularly, how you treat it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Our_Ken
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 10, 2011:
I had a bit of a wee back-pedal on this one too! Even coming round to thinking that the sense might actually be closer to :

"Le meilleur terroir ne diffère en rien du mauvais SI CE N4EST QU'IL EST CULTIVE"

which kinda falls in line with Tony's current hunch. Might be a possibility. Mihgt not even be that important in context, as the intro to your original is perhaps preparing the ground (ha ha) for what is to follow, setting down the basic ideas. If it is sufficient to put forward the idea that there are two types of land : cultivated and uncultivated and that is what makes the difference, if that fits with the rest of the text in terms of balance, maybe that could do it.

How much poetic licence do you have here?

Going to sleep on this one I reckon: ;-)
Tony M Apr 10, 2011:
best / worst I don't really see why there is any problem with these terms; 'le meilleur' might be rendered as 'a better' — there is a notion of comparison with 'this one is better than that one'

Cf. the way we use comparatives-that-aren't in EN, like younger children, older women, large houses.

And similarly, for 'mauvais', I'd almost be inclined to go for 'worse' (to maintain the idea of the compartive) rather than 'worst' or 'bad'.
So I don't really think there's any need to be slavish about this here.
Tony M Apr 10, 2011:
Not so sure... I don't think I quite agree with many of the interpretations here, and I think it may be important to take a step back and look at this again.


My interpretation is that there's no inherent difference between 'good' and 'bad' terroirs, until such time as something is grown on them. I.e. you only get to find out once it's too late... ;-)
Allison Wright (X) (asker) Apr 10, 2011:
@ ormiston In viticulture, much of the quality of the wine is said to be attributable to "terroir" - literally, the place, or region (designation of origin) where the wine is grown (which can also coincide with a specific grapevine variety). e.g. Only Bordeaux can grow Bordeaux wines. What Vauban is saying, (and the point my De author is making) is that even Bordeaux wines (e.g.) can be as awful as anything originating from a bad terroir, if the vineyard is not attended to/cultivated. i.e. "Terroir is not everything". Or more colloquially "Great terroir, pity about the wine."
ormiston Apr 10, 2011:
this adds a new slant to it and I'm trying to grasp the logic. If the soil is poor does merely cultivating it make it just as good as great soil?
Allison Wright (X) (asker) Apr 10, 2011:
Best and bad is good! Thank you, Nikki!
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 10, 2011:
How about something extremely, well, ... ordinary? The only difference between the best and bad land is that the former is cultivated.

What make the best land better than bad land is the fact that it is cultivated.

Allison Wright (X) (asker) Apr 10, 2011:
My understanding of the text is that even the best "terroir" will produce bad wine, if not properly cultivated. So the most economical solution might be: "The best terroir is no different from an inferior one, if (it is) not properly cultivated."
Allison Wright (X) (asker) Apr 10, 2011:
Good idea, writeaway Actually, my ST is German, with this quotation in German. The German author cites a keynote speech given by Spanish scientist in English at a conference held in Italy last year! Inserting the French this particular quotation would bring us back to basics, and lend some authenticity to everything. Thank you.
writeaway Apr 10, 2011:
Keep the French! Whatever you decide to use for the English, I suggest keeping the French since it appears to be a well known quote and is used a lot in the context. Suggest just putting the English in ( )
Allison Wright (X) (asker) Apr 10, 2011:
Rendition of "mauvais" as "the worst" is where I have the quibble with the English translation touted by wine buffs everywhere. Thank you for the links, Barbara.

Proposed translations

+1
12 hrs
Selected

The best terroir, if left uncultivated, is no different from a bad/mediocre one

very similar to your own and other options, as answers and in discussion, but changing the position of "if left uncultivated" makes it flow better imo. Of course can be left positioned at end!

Another option was to contrast "great" (instead of "best") and mediocre"

or

"if improperly cultivated" might be closer to meaning as I assume the terroir IS cultivated?

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Note added at 7 days (2011-04-17 20:26:18 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

glad to help!
Peer comment(s):
agree CKSTraductions
7 hrs
many thanks!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you to everyone for a very full discussion. writeaway's suggestion of including original French quotation was helpful, as was Tony M's reminder that there is no need to be slavish about it."
6 mins

The best land is just as good as the worst if left uncultivated

My suggestion. I think it improves on the rendition you have seen previously, but others may have better ideas.
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

the best soil is no different from inferior soil until it's cutivated

another way of conveying it?
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1 hr

The best land is worth no more than the worst, lest it not be cultivated.

I've played around with it a little using "worth" as that is perhaps what is being considered, although expressing it may not be suitable for your context!

Other possiblity :

"The best and worst land differ not, lest ..."


Cannot quite work out whether the "lest" should be "lest .... not" or "lest" alone. Comments welcomed!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2011-04-10 16:40:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Taking into account your comment about "mauvais" as "worst", which is incorrect of course, as is "good" for "meilleur"... makes me wonder whether the original did not opt for "meilleur" and "mauvais" as they both start with "m" giving it a better ring. Maybe a smiliar ruse would be wise in English; maybe hitting the right tone here is about getting the right pair first, then addressing the diffculty of the second part?

Solo brainstorm :
good/bad
soil/toil

Unless there is toil, land good and bad differ not.
Note from asker:
Your note about the alliterative effect of meilleur/mauvais has hit it on the head for me. It also explains the best/worst translation option that I was objecting to in the first place. Terroir is the right term, no question. I may still go with my initial translation, but incorporate the superior/inferior dichotomy to similar references to terroir elsewhere in the text.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Whilst understanding the valid points you are making, I can't help feeling that your suggested use of 'lest' would be quite wrong here (remember, it has the notion of 'for fear that..')
7 hrs
Yep, you're right Tony! "if not cultivated" is simple enough and would probably be fine. THis is becoming a moutain out of a molehill! ;-)
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

a good land (or terroir) is a bad land 1-until you cultivate it 2-if not cultivated

just a humble suggestion
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I think that really rather changes the meaning
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
15 mins

The best soil differs in nothing from the worst, if it is not cultivated

Found on a preview page on www.jstor.org/stable/210595 (excerpted from Vauban and Modern Geography, J. Gottmann, 1944)

'In the 18 Century, Vauban wrote “the best terroir is not different from the worst if it is not cultivated.” The expression of terroir is also linked to human choice; it represents an ambition and an investment which is not limited to the “soil.”
(This other version can be found at
www.hgmarketing.net/pdf/Mondavi40_Terroir.pdf)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2011-04-10 12:29:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I personally prefer the first one, as it has more of a seventeenth-century feel to it. Also, I would not know if at that time 'terroir' had the same weight it has nowadays in winespeak.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2011-04-11 06:42:46 GMT)
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A gem indeed! I'll definitely make a note of this. Thanks, B.
Note from asker:
Interesting: 1549 "goust de terroir", à propos d'un vin, is the first usage. Cistercian monks, whose contribution to the development of viticulture/viniculture was enormous, actually tasted the soils of their vineyards, just to verify that the wine had "le goût du terroir"! This little gem is not in my ST, though.
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Reference comments

6 hrs
Reference:

already been translated (of course)

"In the 18 Century, Vauban wrote “the best terroir is not different from the worst if it is not cultivated.” The expression of terroir is also linked to human choice; it represents an ambition and an investment which is not limited to the “soil.”"

… as part of a California winery's high-flown marketing of the concept of terroir to the unwashed.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2011-04-10 18:43:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And frankly, Vauban's maxim is just as true, and more universal, if you substitute "plot of ground" for "terroir". :-)
Reference:

http://www.hgmarketing.net/pdf/Mondavi40_Terroir.pdf

Note from asker:
I believe I quoted this verbatim in my question. I had a problem with "the worst" as part of the English translation. Agree one could substitute "plot of ground" if one was talking about corn, but not grapevines.
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