Thomas Roberts Dec 16, 2011:

No English language test here, unless you want to apply for citizenship. It would be a bit of a farce anyway in Scotland as most natives would probably fail an English language test.....

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 16, 2011:

Not to worry Grace I had just got back from the comune yesterday and I thought that after nearly twenty years of renewing a permesso every four years, that (12 years ago) we had a permanent carta di permesso, but it isn't so permanent. Incidentally, the chief of the questura got investigated for corruption just a year after my experience and people actually went to prison, so there is justice. All the kids there started wearing uniforms too :).
Milan is a great place to be if you come from another part of the world and this sort of hardening of attitutes is happening everywhere. I read in the newspaper today that if we wanted to return to England she might have to pass an English language test. It seems that we are all supposed to live and die in the same place these days. Some people are so boring.

tradu-grace Dec 16, 2011:

@Hi Jim I'm very sorry for you and your wife. It's really a shame.
Sometimes, I am definitely ashamed of being Italian (even partly French). Wish you'll sort things out.

Thomas Roberts Dec 16, 2011:

just a late night thought What about if your wife "lost" her ID card. Make a statement to the police and take that to the comune: then they have to give her something.

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

E' la carta dei servizi an electronic card with a chip in it which has replaced the old libretto della mutua. They are having great problems with getting it rolled out, but when they have bureaucratic problems, non EU citizens get put in the slow track, with extra procedures etc.
@Tam I am always treated with perfect respect and on a "politeness" level so is my wife (she sometimes says, "did you notice the way that person ignored me as if I wasn't there?" but it is never a problem). The problem is always the documents. Five months after getting married (1985), having been told a different story every two weeks about the renewal of my wife's permesso, I asked to see a superior and then another superior and finally found myself standing to attention (navy cadet force style) in front of the head of the ufficio stranieri in Milan. I stared him in straight in the eyes and told him I was not nervoso, I didn't want a camomilla, I hadn't realised the unshaven youths in jeans were policemen cos they weren't in uniform, that we had applied for the renewal. this year not last etc. (he was wearing a dickie bow tie, with a queue of very richly dressed people at his desk). I got the permesso ten minutes later!

Thomas Roberts Dec 15, 2011:

then I would steer clear of Brescia! For a place with one of the highest proportions of non-European immigrants in Italy, they still have a long way to go in terms of the way they treat foreigners. Why don't you just get citizenship? That's one sure way of putting an end to all types of hassle. I didn't think it would make much difference for me, but I found that officials especially treated me with a lot more respect. Took 2 years, but it was worth it in the end.

Ivana UK Dec 15, 2011:

Sounds like the carta sanitaria they issue in Tuscany, or is the carta dei servizi smthg else?
Aurely they can't just refuse to issue one? What a nightmare.

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

My wife doesn't look European at all she looks very Creole :), but luckily they don't do random checks like that in Milan. That sort of thing is not a problem. Neither of us have ever been stopped ever. It's the bureaucracy which is the problem. Lombardy has a ""services card" and we both got one. After five years they expired and I got a new one in the post, but my wife didn't and no you can't go and collect it. I waited three hours in a queue ten months ago and they said they would send another, but they didn't. No card no doctor or hospital, after the latest deadline which was in September, unless they extended it again.

Thomas Roberts Dec 15, 2011:

technically speaking they could ask to see your residence permit at any time, but that won't really happen if you look European enough. I've only ever been stopped once for a random control of ID.

Ivana UK Dec 15, 2011:

Don't think it is mandatory so long as you have some other form of ID.
What you're describing sounds exactly like the small town I grew up in in Italy :)

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

Seychelles is a different kettle of fish with only 70,000 inhabitants everybody is related to everybody. The head of the passport and immigration department is my wife's godmother's son, and of course lives just a stone's throw away. If nepotism was illegal, everybody would be unemployed.

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

Something I've never done in all these years Tam. Just take it philosophically. Basically you don't really need an identity card these days, or do you?

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

Yes we will do that I've been through these things for years and years, but just when we finally got the "permesso" finally issued permanently 10-12 years ago, the comune started to make it difficult for non european citizens to get an identity card. They opened up an "ufficio stranieri".

Thomas Roberts Dec 15, 2011:

or inadvertently leave a 50 euro note in your wife's passport

Ivana UK Dec 15, 2011:

I'd try the anagrafe again, and speak to someone else, that often does the trick! Just depends what kind of mood they're in when you get there.

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

Want to decamp to the Seychelles which is where my wife is from (and the tax problems there are a book long), but we want to be able to pick up our pensions in ten years time. Discovering my wife's identity documents are suddenly not valid, and not renewable is a little worrying.

Thomas Roberts Dec 15, 2011:

just another reason to de-camp to Chiasso to live!

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

They want us to "aggiornare" la carta di soggiorno issued by the state police. We were advised by a union friend to do this three years ago after she had renewed her passport, because her passport number is on the "carta di soggiorno". We spent nearly a hundred euro and a total of around six hours (two trips) in a post office to do this three years ago (2008). We have received no answer. She is now renewing her passport again and the comune is telling us to "update" the carta di soggiorno because the names are wrong.

Ivana UK Dec 15, 2011:

Crazy stuff Jim, Can't say I miss all that bureaucratic nonsense. Our local anagrafe but glad you got it sorted. Our local anagrafe in Tuscany once put the wrong date of birth on my mum's ID card and listed her as Irish instead of British (Scottish would have been ok, but there are no Irish connections whatsoever) and then refused to change it saying it wasn't necessary!

Thomas Roberts Dec 15, 2011:

I had a similar problem when still a foreigner in Italy. Apparently it's the fault of the people in the comune who until the Bossi-Fini was passed had some discretion about the names they put on the ID card. What they did with me was a "correction" at the anagrafe who put all my names on the register and gave me a new ID card. But that was in Brescia, and the Bresciani would have it that they are the only ones in Italy to have even a minimal level of organisation.

James (Jim) Davis (asker) Dec 15, 2011:

Is this Highland proze? :) I had put the serial number, but now I don't need the translation. The marriage certificate is mine, so I telephoned the Brit consulate in Milan this morning to ask if they could certify it, but they don't certify translations any more. They told me to go down to the comune and ask for a multilingua certificate in English French German etc.. Forty minute wait and 52 cents for two. I also popped in to room 19 to ask the anagrafe official why they couldn't renew my wife's identity card. He explained that it was impossible because she only has her first and last name on her "carta di soggiorno" while her identity card has her two middle names on it. I explained that they had issued it in the first place on the basis of that same document and then they had already renewed it once, and that after all we were married there 25 years ago with all the history in the computer but he said the names were different and started talking about Egyptians (ideas and images passed through my mind of ... which I tried desparately to suppress ...
I think I need some northern gale force winds and lashing rain in my face to shake me back to sanity

Ivana UK Dec 15, 2011:

I thought that too, how much extra room does one person take up in a party of 28?? But that's what I was told :)
To be honest, I'm surprised anyone made it at all - gale force winds, lashing rain - the weather couldn't have been worse! Glad you enjoyed it though and see you next time

Thomas Roberts Dec 15, 2011:

The closing date didn't make much sense to me as Howies was half empty (which is understandable once you taste the food). See you next time then!

Ivana UK Dec 15, 2011:

I wanted to go but left it too late to book as the closing date was Nov. 14.
Was hoping someone would cancel (like I did last year) so that I could take their place but it didn't happen!!
I'll get my name down early next year!

Thomas Roberts Dec 15, 2011:

nothing to do with this question, but you missed a nice proz Christmas dinner last week!

Ivana UK Dec 15, 2011:

Not at all sure, but could the 2723 be a consecutive internal number of some sort? So progressivo in the sense of consecutive?