Latin term
Polyglot
Native in: Turkish 
Works in: English to Turkish, Turkish to English, German to Turkish, and 7 more.
"se"
Cleopatra timebat enim ne Octavianus vellet se captivam per vias Romae ducere, cum triumphum ageret; quod dedecus ferre non poterat.
It feels like this "se" refers to Cleopatra, but I have been insistently told that it is referring to Octavianus.
What's your opinion about it?
Thank you very much in advance for your answer..
| 5 +8 | see explanation |
Flavio Ferri-Benedetti
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| 4 +7 | Se refers to Cléopâtra |
Pierre POUSSIN
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| 5 -2 | to Octavianus |
Giusi Pasi
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May 19, 2005 09:20: Flavio Ferri-Benedetti changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
PRO (2): Giusi Pasi, Flavio Ferri-Benedetti
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Proposed translations
Switzerland
PhD & Ita+Spa Native. Fast and precise.
Native in: Italian , Spanish
Works in: Spanish to Italian, Italian to Spanish, German to Spanish, and 7 more.
see explanation
"timebat" here is a verb of "fear". Thus, "ne" here works as "that", with an affirmative clause instead of a negative, which would be normal for "ne".
"Cleopatra, indeed, was afraid that Octavianus would lead her captive through the streets of Rome".
"Se" here is clear Cleopatra, 3rd singular pronoun. It could never be Octavianus because context clearly tell us that:
-"se" is the object of "ducere": to lead HER
-"se" goes with "captivam" which is accusative as well, and an adjective that defines "se" - it is clearly feminine :) (captivAM instead of captivUM)
"she was afraid that he would want to lead HER captive (in chains) through the streets of Rome"
I hope this helps you :)
Best wishes
Flavio
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Note added at 28 mins (2005-05-19 09:28:44 GMT)
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Yes, it could be \"eam\" as well, but in this case Octavian should be \"eum\" too... I like the reflexive \"flavour\" of \"se\" here for Cleopatra, and I think its proximity to captivam is vital here.
| agree |
Maria Ferstl
49 mins
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| agree |
Joseph Brazauskas
: Euge!
50 mins
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Gratias tibi, Josephus!
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| agree |
Pierre POUSSIN
: Excellent explanation!
50 mins
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Thank you :)
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| agree |
Vicky Papaprodromou
51 mins
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| agree |
Giusi Pasi
: yes, i can see it more clearly. you're right :)
1 hr
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No problem dear Giusi :)
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| agree |
------ (X)
1 hr
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| agree |
kaydee
2 hrs
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| agree |
Alfa Trans (X)
6 hrs
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France
Fast and accurate.
Native in: French (Variant: Standard-France)
Works in: English to French, French to English, Latin to French, and 2 more.
Se refers to Cléopâtra
| agree |
kaydee
2 mins
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Thanks!
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| agree |
Valeska Maier-Wörz
: exactly
2 mins
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Merci!
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| agree |
Giusi Pasi
: changed comment. you're right. now i can see it more clearly. sorry for confusion..
8 mins
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Don't think so! "Cleopatra" is "subject" of "Timebat", so the reflexive pronoun is better than "eam"
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| agree |
Joseph Brazauskas
55 mins
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Thank you!
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| agree |
Maria Ferstl
: Definitely! Eam would be wrong!
59 mins
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Merci!
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| agree |
Vicky Papaprodromou
1 hr
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Merci Vicky!
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| agree |
------ (X)
1 hr
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Merci!
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Italy
Veni, Vidi, Verti!
Native in: Italian
Works in: Italian, English to Italian, German to Italian
to Octavianus
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Note added at 1 hr 28 mins (2005-05-19 10:29:05 GMT)
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My colleagues are right. As a matter of fact, \'se\' is together \'captivam, then Flavio\'s explanation is brilliant.
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Note added at 1 hr 28 mins (2005-05-19 10:29:35 GMT)
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together with, of course
| neutral |
Flavio Ferri-Benedetti
: Why shouldn't it be "eum", then, dear Giusi? I see an emphatic use of the reflexive here. Also, I think it is important to notice how "se" and "captivam" are together here. I would find it strange to read "captivam" as an isolated item, don't you think?
18 mins
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I see only the objective proposition for O.
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| disagree |
Maria Ferstl
: Cl. is the subject of the sentence, so "her" couldn't be expressed with "eam" in this case. And O. is a male...
59 mins
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| disagree |
Joseph Brazauskas
: 'Se' is here the indirect reflexive, as indicated by the feminine form of the modifying adjective ('captivam'), 'Cleopatra' being the subject nominative of 'timebat' and 'Octavianus' of 'vellet'.
59 mins
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Discussion