| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Moderators can answer questions in the Kudoz combination they moderate Thread poster: Elodie Bonnafous
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Elodie Bonnafous
France
Local time: 04:20
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I happen to help my peers as well and answer questions when I can.
And I happen to know some fields pretty well, and to provide enough links and evidence proving the correctness of my answers.
But as soon as a moderator or a point-collecter answers, they get all / most agrees, so that their answer is considered as better than mine / others' (well sometimes it is, sometimes it is not, and sometimes it's a question of point of view).
In the End, the asker generally... See more I happen to help my peers as well and answer questions when I can.
And I happen to know some fields pretty well, and to provide enough links and evidence proving the correctness of my answers.
But as soon as a moderator or a point-collecter answers, they get all / most agrees, so that their answer is considered as better than mine / others' (well sometimes it is, sometimes it is not, and sometimes it's a question of point of view).
In the End, the asker generally choses the answer with the most agrees (I don't mean "select the answer as most helpful" and granting Kudoz points, but the word he / she really writes in his translation).
Seeing how this happens with questions I answer myself, this certainly also happens with questions I ask, and the problem is that I realized today that Kudoz answers placed on top are not as reliable as they seem ! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Elodie Bonnafous
France
Local time: 04:20
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
LittleBalu wrote:
Instead of proposing that moderators should be barred from answering questions in the pairs they moderate, you should question the power of judgement of those who agree to a suggestion simply because it was posted by a moderator.
Absolutely !! And that's what I do, but I must admit my first posts were misleading.
I wanted to raise the problem as a whole (and not as an "anti-moderator campaign"), and I didn't present it from the right point of view.
That's also why I had to keep repeating all along this thread that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MODERATORS..
Apologies to all, because my first post mislead all, and thanks to LittleBalu for reformulating my thoughts the right way.
| | | | | judgment of agreers | Jun 18, 2009 |
Elodie Bonnafous wrote: LittleBalu wrote:
Instead of proposing that moderators should be barred from answering questions in the pairs they moderate, you should question the power of judgement of those who agree to a suggestion simply because it was posted by a moderator.
Absolutely !! And that's what I do, but I must admit my first posts were misleading. I wanted to raise the problem as a whole (and not as an "anti-moderator campaign"), and I didn't present it from the right point of view. That's also why I had to keep repeating all along this thread that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MODERATORS.. Apologies to all, because my first post mislead all, and thanks to LittleBalu for reformulating my thoughts the right way.
This is what I understood right from the start. Same-French- way of thinking in English, maybe!...
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Elodie, whatever your original intentions, the discussion evolved in the direction implying that some moderators are on top of the KudoZ list only because their answers attract more agrees from members who instead of considering the merits of an answer consider who the answerer is. Which in turn implies that such an attitude is so widespread that it has the potential of significantly affecting KudoZ statistics and consequently has to be neutralised by a ban on the moderators answering any questi... See more Elodie, whatever your original intentions, the discussion evolved in the direction implying that some moderators are on top of the KudoZ list only because their answers attract more agrees from members who instead of considering the merits of an answer consider who the answerer is. Which in turn implies that such an attitude is so widespread that it has the potential of significantly affecting KudoZ statistics and consequently has to be neutralised by a ban on the moderators answering any questions in the moderated pairs.
I felt I had to disagree, as I consider such a belief deprecatory not only to the moderators' professional abilities, but - more importantly - to the professional, impartial attitudes of 99% of ProZians.
If my assumption of only 1% displaying opposite attitudes is OK, then 1% cannot be statistically meaningful, right? Then, if not statistically meaningful, no neutralisation is necessary, right?
On the other hand, if it is not 1% but a statistically meaningful (and thus indeed requiring neutralisation) proportion of, say, 20%, the obvious conclusion about the professionalism of ProZ community as a whole is quite discouraging, I must say.
PS: While I was writing the above, more posts appeared on this page and changed the discussion angle a bit. Still, to me the question of statistical significance remains valid. Both from the community's self-awareness perspective, and from the perspective of finding out the statistical (in)significance of the phenomenon. As I cannot see how we could accomplish the latter, I see no point in firing the cannons.
[Edited at 2009-06-18 16:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Jerzy Czopik 
Germany
Local time: 04:20
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
| Topic says "Moderators can answer questions in the Kudoz combination they moderate" | Jun 18, 2009 |
The way you started the topic many of us simply understood that literaly...
Now I understand your point.
| | | | Özden Arıkan
Germany
Local time: 04:20
Member
English to Turkish
+ ...
| On Kudoz moderators | Jun 18, 2009 |
People don't go high on the Kudoz list after they become moderators, to the contrary, they begin earning less points because they participate less, which in turn is because of 1) the time restriction moderating activity puts on them, and the 2) reserve explained here by some past and current moderators. The relation is from the reverse: site users who rank high in the Kudoz list become moderators. And this is because you have to be an active participant of Kudoz in order to moderate Kudoz... See more People don't go high on the Kudoz list after they become moderators, to the contrary, they begin earning less points because they participate less, which in turn is because of 1) the time restriction moderating activity puts on them, and the 2) reserve explained here by some past and current moderators. The relation is from the reverse: site users who rank high in the Kudoz list become moderators. And this is because you have to be an active participant of Kudoz in order to moderate Kudoz, not to mention you also have to be a site user who is known to other users (a process which is facilitated by active involvement in Kudoz) and also you have to be a colleague that has established herself within the community and earned a certain level of recognition and respect (which, again, is not a direct result of Kudoz activity, but community awareness thereof can be).
Kudoz gives you a chance to practice and hone your skills; to network with colleagues; to establish contact with outsourcers; to get a good directory standing. These are what a translator would need to survive and promote herself in the business. Moderators are translators; they make their living with translation. So, they obviously need Kudoz activity from the viewpoint of their business. Now, I am wondering, if you want them to be out of Kudoz, you are asking them to compromise their business. Then what do you suggest to compensate this? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Elodie Bonnafous
France
Local time: 04:20
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Kudoz points list : sorry, this is off-topic | Jun 19, 2009 |
OK, I never spoke about this list and I'm sorry it there's a misunderstanding, it might be right, or not, I don't know and I honnestly don't really mind.
My only worry is about the answers' and agrees' reliabitlity, I honnestly don't care in the least about statistics and points, but only on the translation's quality. @ Iza, you are very probably right, but I'm not concerned about statistics or the like, I never even thought about it, so you must have addressed the wrong person, bec... See more OK, I never spoke about this list and I'm sorry it there's a misunderstanding, it might be right, or not, I don't know and I honnestly don't really mind.
My only worry is about the answers' and agrees' reliabitlity, I honnestly don't care in the least about statistics and points, but only on the translation's quality. @ Iza, you are very probably right, but I'm not concerned about statistics or the like, I never even thought about it, so you must have addressed the wrong person, because if you read my posts again, you'll see that's not my point here. ▲ Collapse
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Arnaud HERVE
France
Local time: 04:20
English to French
+ ...
| Democratic vs collegial | Jun 19, 2009 |
Imho the Kudoz are becoming problematic. I think we confuse democratic participation and collegial participation here.
Democratic participation would be "Is it interesting to practice aikido or not?". There is no objective answer to that, and we must accept everybody's answer. Therefore we must apply the virtues of tolerance and politeness, which are on the emotional inter-personal side. However if in the Kudoz the answer to "train" is "plane", this is wrong and will always remain w... See more Imho the Kudoz are becoming problematic. I think we confuse democratic participation and collegial participation here.
Democratic participation would be "Is it interesting to practice aikido or not?". There is no objective answer to that, and we must accept everybody's answer. Therefore we must apply the virtues of tolerance and politeness, which are on the emotional inter-personal side. However if in the Kudoz the answer to "train" is "plane", this is wrong and will always remain wrong, even if 100% of Proz members think it is "plane".
Therefore we are more in the situation of science here. It is not a question of opinions, of politeness or impoliteness, but of truth. It is not a social meeting but a professional meeting aiming at a correct result.
I think the Kudoz were originally conceived not like the participation of subjective citizens, but like the collegial meeting of doctors consulting each others on a difficult case. However the system obviously cannot any longer run that way, because :
- Doctors consult doctors with a doctor's degree. An Australian doctor who meets a Japanese doctor knows that somehow the Japanese doctor has received suitable education in a serious country, but it would be nonsense for a doctor to ask anybody in his hometown about a difficult case.
- Doctors don't -as far as I know - stop practicing in order to answer all questions on a website and become the "doctor with the most good reps".
Therefore I think in order to solve this Kudoz problem we must assert two principles first :
1) This site is for correct translations. Wrong translations must disappear from the archives, and they must be as far as possible prevented from appearing.
2) This place is not a psychological nightmare with small frogs trying to become bigger frogs in the pond. We can even suspect that some translators who seldom participate have an equal expertise to those who frequently participate.
As far as Kudoz moderators are concerned, I think their energy must be turned to something else than answering, in order to avoid the temptation of becoming the big frog in the small pond.
For reasons of emergency in Kudoz questions (translation to be delivered with tight deadline), it could be a wrong solution to moderate the Kudoz uphill. However when the question has been closed, the moderator could be the leader of a process of validation, aimed at entering the answer -or not - in the glossaries.
Therefore, the competence of entering an answer in the glossary or refusing entry in the glossary should be removed from the asker, and transfered to the moderator.
I would also like the possibility for answerers who have not been selected to raise objections, after the closing of the question. I am thinking in particular of some results in the medical field, which clearly appalling, if not downright dangerous.
At any rate, no wrong entry in the final glossaries can be tolerated on this professional translators' website. The wrong selection Kudoz case must also disappear from the archives, in order not to be findable by search engines. An automatic e-mail could also be sent to the wrong asker, informing him/her of the mistake.
As for the wrong answerer, well "wrong answerer" could be defined as this :
- Didn't know the language
AND/OR
- Didn't know the specific field
With an ample tolerance for those who made an honest mistake but knew the language and understood the field.
The wrong answerer would then incur a penalty of being allowed to post less answers per day. Incremental penalty. This way the sanction would not be too harsh - it would not appear on the person's record - and the reliability of Kudoz would be considerably increased.
The moderator would then moderate uphill and downhill, but not during the answers' time. Correct answerers ho have not been selected would be able to raise an objection to the moderator, thereby improving professional standards. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Elodie Bonnafous
France
Local time: 04:20
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | @ Arnaud: you've hit the nail on the head | Jun 19, 2009 |
I totally agree with you, that's precisely what was bothering me!
To garanty that answers are serious and given with no other intention than to help, I think Kudoz answers should not be awarded points, and the procedure of selecting "a most helpul answer" should be abolished. That way, answers could be discussed, agreed and disagreed with in a more honnest and neutral context.
This system already works on the non-professionnal translation website leo.org, all questions ... See more I totally agree with you, that's precisely what was bothering me!
To garanty that answers are serious and given with no other intention than to help, I think Kudoz answers should not be awarded points, and the procedure of selecting "a most helpul answer" should be abolished. That way, answers could be discussed, agreed and disagreed with in a more honnest and neutral context.
This system already works on the non-professionnal translation website leo.org, all questions are beeing answered all the same, there is no run-for-points, no run-for-popularity.
There are serious debates all the same on how to translate precise terms and expressions, and you can be sure that when an answerer defends his point of view, he is sincere and focused on finding the right answer instead of beeing granted some more points. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Abolish selecting the most helpful answer? | Jun 19, 2009 |
Elodie Bonnafous wrote:
... and the procedure of selecting "a most helpul answer" should be abolished.
And how do you propose to build a glossary if no answer is selected? There will be endless debates on every question because everyone thinks his/her suggestion is the best. Apart from that, the discussions are often heated enough as they are, no need to heat them up further.
This system already works on the non-professionnal translation website leo.org, all questions are beeing answered all the same, there is no run-for-points, no run-for-popularity.
There are serious debates all the same on how to translate precise terms and expressions, and you can be sure that when an answerer defends his point of view, he is sincere and focused on finding the right answer instead of beeing granted some more points.
Sincere? Serious? Without wanting to offend anyone (and maybe it's different in the German-French forum), the discussions in LEO's German-English forum are often unprofessional and highly emotional. I do not participate in LEO but search the forums once in a while. I've seen so much abusive language and so many insults in LEO's forum threads, and no moderators to cool down the hotheads, that I would definitely not consider LEO users to be more sincere (or serious or matter-of-fact) than KudoZ participants - points or no points.
[Edited at 2009-06-19 18:16 GMT]
| | | | Elodie Bonnafous
France
Local time: 04:20
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Debates on leo.org are highly passionnate and sometimes unprofessionnal indeed, but I did not say that we should ask our questions there, it was just an example of another way of functionning.
The same system on Proz would result in
- more honest answers than they are now (answer to help only, without points at the back of one's mind)
- a higher quality of the answers than now (some enter an answer just in the hope of beeing granted the points without having the slightest ide... See more Debates on leo.org are highly passionnate and sometimes unprofessionnal indeed, but I did not say that we should ask our questions there, it was just an example of another way of functionning.
The same system on Proz would result in
- more honest answers than they are now (answer to help only, without points at the back of one's mind)
- a higher quality of the answers than now (some enter an answer just in the hope of beeing granted the points without having the slightest idea of what they are talking about)
- a more professionnal behaviour than on leo.org.
If you want to build a glossary on Proz, you can do it under My Proz.com/My glossary and even gain points. No need of Kudoz questions for that.
There is no need at all to select a "most helpful answer", every translator is free to decide which answers he considers most appropriate basing on comments, discussions and agrees / disagrees. There is no reason why the asker / moderator or anybody else should decide which one of the answers should deserve a glossary entry. If you are so certain of the correctness of a translation, you can enter it yourself under "My glossary". All the more, stopping automatical Glossary entries for each and every "most helpful answer" would definitely increase the glossary's quality. ▲ Collapse
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| Some principles | Jun 19, 2009 |
The main goal of the "help" KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help. The fact that an archive of previously posted terms with suggested translations has built up is a planned, yet peripheral, benefit.
Askers have the right to select the most helpful answer.
Moderators help to ensure a positive working environment at ProZ.com by encouraging collaboration and participation, especially among new members, answering ques... See more The main goal of the "help" KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help. The fact that an archive of previously posted terms with suggested translations has built up is a planned, yet peripheral, benefit.
Askers have the right to select the most helpful answer.
Moderators help to ensure a positive working environment at ProZ.com by encouraging collaboration and participation, especially among new members, answering questions, and otherwise helping members to get the most out of ProZ.com. Moderators also field complaints and intervene when necessary to ensure that site rules are followed.
Moderators may serve additional and miscellaneous roles outside of the role of moderator, as do other members of the community, and are encouraged to do so. However, it should be understood that moderators do not serve to any degree as linguistic authorities.
KudoZ moderators are selected among good answerers. They are an asset for the whole community. Asking them to stop answering KudoZ would not be in line with the main objective of KudoZ.
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | Elodie Bonnafous
France
Local time: 04:20
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Enrique for your explanations.
But the thread as considerably evolved since my first post, so I suggest that you read the whole thread.
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Elodie Bonnafous wrote:
Thank you Enrique for your explanations.
But the thread as considerably evolved since my first post, so I suggest that you read the whole thread.
I have followed this thread and I felt that it would be relevant to bring here some of the principles on which ProZ.com and KudoZ in particular operate. They should not be expected to change.
Regards,
Enrique
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