Feb 26, 2019 19:07
5 yrs ago
22 viewers *
Spanish term
saber ser y saber estar
Spanish to English
Social Sciences
Education / Pedagogy
Educational Research / As
The options here would seem to be either to eliminate one of the terms, or try to express them both somehow lexically. I wonder how many people would attempt the latter.
"Los alumnos ya no solo deben saber, sino saber hacer, saber ser y saber estar."
"Los alumnos ya no solo deben saber, sino saber hacer, saber ser y saber estar."
Proposed translations
(English)
References
Previous questions | Charles Davis |
Proposed translations
+3
1 hr
Selected
know how [or learn] to be and know how [or learn] to live together
I asked my wife about these terms, as she's a "pedagoga" (what do we call them, incidentally?; I don't think pedagogue is right).
She instantly replied that "saber ser" and "saber estar" relate to the "four pillars of education," a concept put forward by Jacques Delors (of all people) in a 1996 UNESCO paper. "The other two are "saber hacer" and "saber saber,"' she went on.
So, according to the UNESCO translations of this Jacques Delors paper, the "4 pillars of education" are given as:
"Learning to know" (Spanish, "Aprender a conocer")
"Learning to do" ("Aprender a hacer")
"Learning to live together" ("Aprender a convivir")
"Learning to be" ("Aprender a ser")
The treasure within: Learning to know, learning to do, learning to live together and learning to be. What is
the value of that treasure 15 years after its publication?
Jacques Delors
http://www.oosci-mena.org/uploads/1/wysiwyg/Delors_article_r...
Delors, Jacques (1994). "Los cuatro pilares de la educación", en La Educación encierra
un tesoro. México: El Correo de la UNESCO, pp. 91-103.
https://www.uv.mx/dgdaie/files/2012/11/CPP-DC-Delors-Los-cua...
Now, here's where it becomes a little trickier. Those four Delors terms appear to have been variously been re-worded to suit different contexts, for example, as in your case. Here, it's not a question of learning, but rather what the result of that learning is, i.e., "knowing"(?), or "competencies" as educators now call it.
In other words, "saber" corresponds to "learning to know"; saber hacer", to "learning to do"; "saber estar", to "learning to live together"; and "saber ser", to "learning to be".
Están organizadas en cuatro dimensiones (ver tabla 1): competencias disciplinares (saber), competencias metodológicas (saber hacer), competencias sociales (saber estar) y competencias personales (saber ser).
La elección de la propuesta de Tribó en nuestro estudio reside en que, frente a todas las clasificaciones consultadas, la de esta autora está fundamentada en un informe de gran relevancia de la UNESCO (coordinado por Jacques Delors) y las competencias están enfocadas al ámbito profesional de la educación y, más concretamente, al nivel de Secundaria (por tanto, igual que el enfoque de la investigación).
http://repositori.uji.es/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10234/76562/...
So, at the end of the day, whether you say "learn how to be" or "know how to be", is up to you I think and depends on the angle you're looking at this from, but "learn" is the way it's usually worded in English.
She instantly replied that "saber ser" and "saber estar" relate to the "four pillars of education," a concept put forward by Jacques Delors (of all people) in a 1996 UNESCO paper. "The other two are "saber hacer" and "saber saber,"' she went on.
So, according to the UNESCO translations of this Jacques Delors paper, the "4 pillars of education" are given as:
"Learning to know" (Spanish, "Aprender a conocer")
"Learning to do" ("Aprender a hacer")
"Learning to live together" ("Aprender a convivir")
"Learning to be" ("Aprender a ser")
The treasure within: Learning to know, learning to do, learning to live together and learning to be. What is
the value of that treasure 15 years after its publication?
Jacques Delors
http://www.oosci-mena.org/uploads/1/wysiwyg/Delors_article_r...
Delors, Jacques (1994). "Los cuatro pilares de la educación", en La Educación encierra
un tesoro. México: El Correo de la UNESCO, pp. 91-103.
https://www.uv.mx/dgdaie/files/2012/11/CPP-DC-Delors-Los-cua...
Now, here's where it becomes a little trickier. Those four Delors terms appear to have been variously been re-worded to suit different contexts, for example, as in your case. Here, it's not a question of learning, but rather what the result of that learning is, i.e., "knowing"(?), or "competencies" as educators now call it.
In other words, "saber" corresponds to "learning to know"; saber hacer", to "learning to do"; "saber estar", to "learning to live together"; and "saber ser", to "learning to be".
Están organizadas en cuatro dimensiones (ver tabla 1): competencias disciplinares (saber), competencias metodológicas (saber hacer), competencias sociales (saber estar) y competencias personales (saber ser).
La elección de la propuesta de Tribó en nuestro estudio reside en que, frente a todas las clasificaciones consultadas, la de esta autora está fundamentada en un informe de gran relevancia de la UNESCO (coordinado por Jacques Delors) y las competencias están enfocadas al ámbito profesional de la educación y, más concretamente, al nivel de Secundaria (por tanto, igual que el enfoque de la investigación).
http://repositori.uji.es/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10234/76562/...
So, at the end of the day, whether you say "learn how to be" or "know how to be", is up to you I think and depends on the angle you're looking at this from, but "learn" is the way it's usually worded in English.
Note from asker:
Excellent reply, very useful, thanks very much. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Charles Davis
: I would go along with Phil to the extent of cutting "know/learn" after the first: "not only need to know, but (also) to know/learn how to do, to be and to live together", for example.
45 mins
|
Thanks, Charles, yes, of course, whatever aids readability. I was focusing more on the terminology aspect, though I'm sure Neil will give it a nice sheen without too much difficulty :-)
|
|
agree |
Thayenga
: :)
17 hrs
|
Thanks, Thayenga.
|
|
agree |
Chema Nieto Castañón
: O tal vez how to behave, aunque se pierda la referencia a Delors (salvo que ésta resulte inequívoca por contexto, claro). Fantástica respuesta en todo caso :)
7 days
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks once again to everyone who contributed to this query. I really appreciate it. :-)"
54 mins
should know how to find things out, and know how to be ready/prepared
Know how to read and research, and then be ready/prepared to take things on in class, and in the real world.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2019-02-26 20:02:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Reference: Collins Unabridged Spanish/English Dictionary
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2019-02-26 20:02:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Reference: Collins Unabridged Spanish/English Dictionary
7 hrs
The pupils not only (simply) have to be in the know but also have to know how to do things, as well
Los alumnos ya no solo deben saber, sino saber hacer, saber ser y saber estar
The pupils not only (simply) have to be in the know but also have to know how to do things, as well as conduct themselves (well) and be there
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2019-02-27 02:40:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
the last bit might need a tweak but the rest is ok IMO
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2019-02-27 02:41:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
this is going to be a cutie
The pupils not only (simply) have to be in the know but also have to know how to do things, as well as conduct themselves (well) and be there
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2019-02-27 02:40:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
the last bit might need a tweak but the rest is ok IMO
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2019-02-27 02:41:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
this is going to be a cutie
14 hrs
how to live and how to be
how to live one's life and live each moment
[I think "saber estar" could also be about mindfulness in this case]
making the most of life and savouring each moment. [but I feel it's more about how to make the most of life by paying attention to the small day--to-day things, such as behaviour towards others, appreciating, savouring... and enjoying the moment]
7 days
to know how to be and to know how to behave
Sólo a título de reflexión adicional.
Habitus orients people to act and think in certain ways , and affords a 'practical sense' (Bourdieu, 1998: 25) of how to be, behave and act.
https://books.google.es/books?id=vhVGAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT231&lpg=P...
Los alumnos ya no solo deben saber, sino saber hacer, saber ser y saber estar.
There are many interesting nuances in the original Spanish. From an educacional point of view the text is clearly stating that there is more to it than just letting your pupils learn "things", simply data. Ya no sólo deben saber relates to classical learning methodology where you teach "data"; this is a tree, this is a cell, this is what you need to know about history and that is math; a mechanical mostly memory-based learning. Deben saber hacer, saber ser y saber estar refer to that (needed or wanted) evolution. As Robert points out, it sounds a bit like Delors; Apprendre à connaître, apprendre à faire, apprendre à vivre ensemble, apprendre à être. Pero Delors se refiere a la educación superior del hombre culto, adulto, preparado para vivir en sociedad, con conocimiento y tolerancia tanto al hecho cultural como religioso; preparado para apropiarse de las habilidades necesarias para ejercer una profesión más allá del conocimiento bruto que proporciona habitualmente el espacio curricular. Etc.
https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://w...
En el caso que nos ocupa se trata de un masaje diría que tal vez más básico. La educación básica de nuestros alumnos debe evolucionar desde un simple aprender "cosas", "datos", hacia un aprender a hacer (a desarrollar las habilidades necesarias para entender los procesos que permiten el aprendizaje mismo; a hacer en física, en matemáticas, pero también en historia o lengua); hacia un aprender a ser (en tanto que proceso de desarrollo y crecimiento individual hasta convertirse en individuos propiamente, libres, independientes, pensantes); y a aprender a estar. Este estar, minusvalorado un tanto en Discussion, alude a ese más amplio concepto delorsiano de vivre ensemble, pero aquí se expresa diría más básicamente; our pupils need to learn how to behave, how to act.
Cómo estar, salvo como referencia específica a la mencionada cita de Delors, alude de forma genérica a cómo nos comportamos, cómo nos relacionamos con los demás, cómo interactuamos en un contexto social. How to live together probablemente pueda funcionar después de todo, tal y como expresado en la excelente respuesta previa de Robert. Sin más contexto específico, no obstante, aludiría a la idea de how to behave en este caso, como traducción más directa de saber estar; to know how to behave.
Habitus orients people to act and think in certain ways , and affords a 'practical sense' (Bourdieu, 1998: 25) of how to be, behave and act.
https://books.google.es/books?id=vhVGAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT231&lpg=P...
Los alumnos ya no solo deben saber, sino saber hacer, saber ser y saber estar.
There are many interesting nuances in the original Spanish. From an educacional point of view the text is clearly stating that there is more to it than just letting your pupils learn "things", simply data. Ya no sólo deben saber relates to classical learning methodology where you teach "data"; this is a tree, this is a cell, this is what you need to know about history and that is math; a mechanical mostly memory-based learning. Deben saber hacer, saber ser y saber estar refer to that (needed or wanted) evolution. As Robert points out, it sounds a bit like Delors; Apprendre à connaître, apprendre à faire, apprendre à vivre ensemble, apprendre à être. Pero Delors se refiere a la educación superior del hombre culto, adulto, preparado para vivir en sociedad, con conocimiento y tolerancia tanto al hecho cultural como religioso; preparado para apropiarse de las habilidades necesarias para ejercer una profesión más allá del conocimiento bruto que proporciona habitualmente el espacio curricular. Etc.
https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://w...
En el caso que nos ocupa se trata de un masaje diría que tal vez más básico. La educación básica de nuestros alumnos debe evolucionar desde un simple aprender "cosas", "datos", hacia un aprender a hacer (a desarrollar las habilidades necesarias para entender los procesos que permiten el aprendizaje mismo; a hacer en física, en matemáticas, pero también en historia o lengua); hacia un aprender a ser (en tanto que proceso de desarrollo y crecimiento individual hasta convertirse en individuos propiamente, libres, independientes, pensantes); y a aprender a estar. Este estar, minusvalorado un tanto en Discussion, alude a ese más amplio concepto delorsiano de vivre ensemble, pero aquí se expresa diría más básicamente; our pupils need to learn how to behave, how to act.
Cómo estar, salvo como referencia específica a la mencionada cita de Delors, alude de forma genérica a cómo nos comportamos, cómo nos relacionamos con los demás, cómo interactuamos en un contexto social. How to live together probablemente pueda funcionar después de todo, tal y como expresado en la excelente respuesta previa de Robert. Sin más contexto específico, no obstante, aludiría a la idea de how to behave en este caso, como traducción más directa de saber estar; to know how to behave.
Reference comments
9 mins
Reference:
Previous questions
Not very impressed with this one:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/transport-tran...
But this PT-EN question has interesting suggestions (though an utterly bizarre decision by the asker):
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/portuguese-to-english/education-p...
And I'm sure we've had this again recently, but I can't find it.
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/transport-tran...
But this PT-EN question has interesting suggestions (though an utterly bizarre decision by the asker):
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/portuguese-to-english/education-p...
And I'm sure we've had this again recently, but I can't find it.
Note from asker:
(Facepalm). Thanks for posting, although neither of those two entries cuts the mustard for me. Robert's post is interesting, and has made me rethink my initial approach of simply merging "ser/estar" into good old multipurpose "be"... |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral |
Robert Carter
: I'm fairly sure these are terms of art, Charles. See my entry.//Thanks, I've always vaguely had with the word "pedagogue" in my head, but educationalist is right. As she teaches too, I generally just think of her profession as that of a teacher.
1 hr
|
Yes, that rings a bell now that you mention it. (PS. I think a pedagoga is an educationalist.)
|
|
agree |
philgoddard
1 hr
|
Thanks, Phil
|
Discussion
learn to acquire ... not just knowledge but also life skills
Moreover, Neil's question is specifically about understanding the difference between "ser" and "estar" here. I certainly wouldn't have guessed that "estar" was synonymous with "convivir".
The suggestion you've given also omits "saber ser" entirely, when it's clearly a fundamental concept.
It could be translated faithfully without too much repetition, for example, "...not only learn how to know, but how to do, be and live together".