Stuart and Aida Nelson Jun 11, 2019:

agree with your Phil!. Interesting discussion, thanks to Charles, Cecilia, Neil and Tomasso for all the valuable entries, Cheers!

philgoddard Jun 11, 2019:

Don't know why we bothered answering this question.

Charles Davis Jun 10, 2019:

vos This talk of voseo reminds me of a seminar I went to years ago on the use of tratamientos (forms of address) in the Spanish court in the seventeenth century (Philip IV period). Business was held up for several months while a committee decided whether the incoming head of the Queen's household should address members of the King's household as "vos" or "vuestra merced" (the former was only for direct subordinates). And there was an account of an incident (I'm quoting from memory) in which a portero took great exception to being called "vos" by a courtier, saying "yo digo que vos sois vos y aquí no hay más vos sino vos". Irrelevant, I know, but it always amused me.

Cecilia Gowar Jun 10, 2019:

Aquí copio el enlace. Está escrito en un castellano imperfecto. Parecería una traducción automática.
https://www.academia.edu/18952426/El_voseo_en_el_español_Gua...

Cecilia Gowar Jun 10, 2019:

@Tomasso Tanto el voseo como la interjección "che" se usan universalmente en Argentina.
En cuanto que el primero se use sólo para el género masculino, creo que estás confundido.
Te copio algunos fragmentos de un documento que trata del tema:

¨En alguos países, el pronombre vos ha reemplazado al tú
 casi completamente, pero en Guatemala todavía coexisten los dos pronombres.
......
En general, la selección del pronombre de segunda persona se determina en base a muchos factores formalidad o informalidad de la situación, el contexto, los pensamientos o sentimientos de los interlocutores, autoridad, generación, edad, posición social, etc.)
...............
En el tiempo de su estudio, la autora *descubrió que el uso del voseo
predominaba  entre los varones. De hecho, los hombres entrevistados indicaron que el uso de tú era una señal de afeminación u homosexualidad cuando se usaba entre hombres. Los hombres de este estudio afirmaron que el
tuteo debería ser apartado para conversaciones con mujeres, especialmente conversaciones entre mujeres.¨

* Se refiere a un estudio realizado por Anne Pinkerton en la segunda mitad del siglo pasado, en un sector de la población.

Tomasso Jun 10, 2019:

vos, tu y usted (voseo?) Es un poco mas complicado cuando la esposa implea Vos, en lugar de Tu. Algunos lugares, hay uso de Vos para hombres, Tu para esposas y familiares. (Guatemala, Nicaragua) (Mire vos, debes reparar la cocina de una buena vez) Voseo en Argentina o Che es para todos o solo para hombres??

Cecilia Gowar Jun 8, 2019:

It's also used to reprimand children!

neilmac Jun 8, 2019:

@Charles I've witnessed married couples shift from tú to "usted" when arguing with each other.

Cecilia Gowar Jun 7, 2019:

@ Charles Of course, I totally agree with your comments regarding first- name-terms.
Regarding the use of ¨usted¨ in this story, well, the time seems to be around 1960 and yes, it would be possible for someone to address an in-law as ¨usted¨in some circumstances: older person, more important from the social or professional point of view, etc.
I did read the whole story because when possible I like to have the wider context. I do not know if I am allowed to publish the link here, should someone be interested?

Charles Davis Jun 7, 2019:

For that matter, it would be very strange for a brother-in-law and a sister-in-laws to call each other "usted" in modern Spain, unless they hardly knew each other (clearly not the case here) or were given to a degree of formality that is becoming relatively rare. I suppose it must have been normal in the time and place where this story is set.

Charles Davis Jun 7, 2019:

I know a couple of teachers in Spain who call their students "usted". But only a couple.

Charles Davis Jun 7, 2019:

I was really answering Aida, who said that she'd never heard of anyone referring to "being on first-name terms".

Charles Davis Jun 7, 2019:

@Cecilia Re. brother-in-law: true. I didn't mean to suggest that there is a perfect match between first-name terms and tuteo, both of which (as I said) vary in different times and places, but simply that it's the nearest equivalent we have and will sometimes, I think, provide a neat and acceptable translation solution when something more specific than "familiarity" is called for. Though not necessarily here.

I didn't know these two were related by marriage; it doesn't say so in the question.

Cecilia Gowar Jun 7, 2019:

Benedetti Apologies, because this has nothing to do with the term in question. But I wanted to say that although I am not a fan of Benedetti as a writer (unlike most of my contemporaries), I found this particular short story beautifully nuanced and well rounded. A little gem really.

Cecilia Gowar Jun 7, 2019:

As for¨tuteo¨is has become commonplace in Argentina too. To my nephew's surprise, even University teachers in their sixties are addressed using ¨voseo¨, the colloquial form for the second person pronoun there.

Cecilia Gowar Jun 7, 2019:

I doubt someone would not call her brother in law by his first name Charles... not even a few decades ago...

Charles Davis Jun 7, 2019:

On first-name terms This is an absolutely standard expression in English and I would say it's roughly equivalent to usted vs tú. Whether it's the most appropriate translation here is another matter. In Spain nowadays people routinely call complete strangers "tú"; this is less common, I believe, in Latin America. Some people sometimes find it over-familiar. Similarly, people you don't know well calling you by your first name seems over-familiar to some people, though it's become very widespread, and objecting to it would make you seem a bit old-fashioned. But in Britain only a few decades ago it was impolite — over-familiar — to address someone by their first name unless you knew them well, and it was polite to ask: "Mr Smith, may I call you John?".

As for what is happening here, "se detenía con espontánea discreción en los umbrales del tuteo" must mean that they don't actually call each other "tú" but come close to doing so.

In the area around Barnsley, in Yorkshire, people still call family and close friends "thou" (pronounced "tha"). You can hear it in Ken Loach's wonderful film Kes.

Cecilia Gowar Jun 7, 2019:

¡Encantada Aida! Lo que intentaba decir, tal vez no se entendió bien, es que en este caso no corresponde usar la definición puramente gramatical del tuteo, que es la que se usa para el término individual. En realidad estaba pensando en cómo quedaría en el glosario ¡saludos!

Stuart and Aida Nelson Jun 7, 2019:

@ Cecilia Mucho gusto, estás hablando con Aida. Yo soy la que escribo en estos forums. Entonces no leí bien, gracias y saudos desde Merseyside :)

Cecilia Gowar Jun 7, 2019:

@Stuart and Aida That is NOT what I said. As a matter of fact, I voted for ¨informality¨as proposed by Adolfo. What I am saying is the formal definition, which inevitably refers to the second pronoun singular, is not suitable in this context, and certainly not for English speakers where the two forms (formal and informal ¨you¨) do not exist.

Stuart and Aida Nelson Jun 7, 2019:

@ Cecilia The information of formal and informal is important for any context IMHO. If you go through the most suitable answers: Thomas and Adolfo (again IMO), they use formal and informal.

Cecilia Gowar Jun 7, 2019:

Tuteo Let´s say you want the translation of ¨tuteo¨ in THIS context. Because tuteo is the use of the informal second pronoun ¨tu¨instead of the formal ¨usted¨. But that definition would not suit this context.

Stuart and Aida Nelson Jun 7, 2019:

first-name terms I agree with Phil, I have never heard of anyone saying being on first-name terms with someone. That is kind of implied in English since that is the way most people speak in English.

Stuart and Aida Nelson Jun 7, 2019:

espontánea discreción en los umbrales del tuteo Entonces Alberto y ella se tuteaban no? Se tuteaban pero era una mezcla entre el tuteo y la forma formal usted? Lo entiendo bien?

Stuart and Aida Nelson Jun 7, 2019:

German and Spanish same tú y usted In German, there is also a clear distinction between Sie = usted and Du = tú and it is called officially formal and informal manner to address someone/ formal and informal register.