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abreviatura en inglés para Mgt.

Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

carne viva (as used here)

English translation:

nude

Added to glossary by gspcpt
Jul 20, 2021 13:13
2 yrs ago
49 viewers *
Spanish term

carne viva (as used here)

Spanish to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting sculpture
This term is used in a description of sculptures by Rodin, with no further context. How should this be expressed?

Escultura de bronce, Iris, mensajero de los dioses (carne viva)
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 nude
3 +1 living flesh
3 in flesh and blood
3 Study of Woman with Legs Apart
3 -1 active
References
Exerpt from an article in Spanish that lends context
mensajera

Discussion

Kristina Love Jul 21, 2021:
@neilmac Sorry, I don't know why, but I was not properly reading+comprehending the Asker's question. I was focused on the idea that it was a "description" without any further context. For some reason it did not click that "Escultura de bronce, Iris, mensajero de los dioses (carne viva)" was the actual segment needing translation from the source text. I thought it was just a few words of explanation. Now I see that it's really just an item listing for the sculpture. I removed my "agree" for "living flesh." I would add an agree to "nude" but for some reason I'm not given the option.
Kristina Love Jul 21, 2021:
@neilmac Overthinking is literally my job! ;) So it's a display card? (It was "living flesh" that I was batting for, not a lengthy paragraph about the human condition.)
O G V Jul 21, 2021:
@ carol, me refería al propio catálogo, si aparece "Desnudo", o algo asimilable, en otra pieza.
es un mundo/jerga peculiar, muy dada a ocurrencias, clasificaciones o nomenclaturas más o menos particulares o adoptadas ex profeso.
la cuestión es si mantienes carne viva en inglés (living flesh) o lo dejas en un sencillo desnudo (nude) con algún calificativo. Con ver la obra, a mí me valió para votar por living flesh: en la escultura se palpa la carne de la diosa, es exagerada o generosamente carnal. Evidentemente, también es un desnudo. Living flesh matiza/añade algo más.
Carol Gullidge Jul 21, 2021:
@ Oscar I already searched in catalogues, and found "Erotic Nude" used for this type of statue; this distinguishes it from any common-or-garden "nude" (if such a thing exists!)
Regular art lovers would know exactly what this involves, without any need for an explicit explanation of any sort - unless, of course, this is supposed to be a description (for non-art aficionados) rather than a catalogue classification. **In fact, this is a purchase contract, so it's highly unlikely that either side would need any other description than the basic catalogue classification.** I would assume that by this stage of the process, the purchaser would have completed the basic homework on his intended purchase...

If there is any doubt, I always tend to assume some prior knowledge (or access to it) rather than "talking down" to the target audience - which can be very irritating!
O G V Jul 20, 2021:
En carnes quiere decir desnuda
(en) carne viva, también
Tampoco hay que darle tanta importancia
Desnudo es una etiqueta muy usada
Preguntaría al cliente y miraría qué usan en otros desnudos del catálogo
Kristina Love Jul 20, 2021:
I hadn't read the discussion until just now, until Carol pointed out that it's a catalogue. Is it a brief identification of the item, or is it the description of the item? In the first case, I tend to agree with Carol. In the second case, I tend to agree with Oscar.
O G V Jul 20, 2021:
carne viva o desnuda es evidente que está desnuda, pero la textura de la escultura invitan a optar por living flesh.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris,_Messenger_of_the_Gods#...

tiene mucha más fuerza al decirlo así y da una gracia a la descripción
de hecho, parece estar viva, en movimiento
Carol Gullidge Jul 20, 2021:
a literary example, the meaning here is clear: Por último se quitó los calzones de encaje, haciéndolos resbalar por las piernas con un movimiento rápido de nadadora, y ****se quedó en carne viva****.
Gabriel García Márquez El amor en los tiem...
Wilsonn Perez Reyes Jul 20, 2021:
1.4 Glossary form must be maintained Draft glossaries are generated automatically from KudoZ questions and answers. For this reason, expressions such as "see below", "in this context", etc., must not be entered in the boxes provided for terms, either when posting source terms or proposing translations.
https://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_general/1.4#1.4
philgoddard Jul 20, 2021:
So it's a cheap reproduction?
Could it mean a figure painted in natural flesh tones?
I wonder why it says "mensajero" and not "mensajera".
gspcpt (asker) Jul 20, 2021:
It is a purchase contract, and from the price it is definitely not the original. The owner is selling several sculptures, and there is a list of the items being sold in the contract, which is where this term appears.
philgoddard Jul 20, 2021:
Is this the original, or one of the smaller castings, or a reproduction? What is the context - is this a catalogue and, if so, where from?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris,_Messenger_of_the_Gods

Proposed translations

+4
16 mins
Selected

nude

= In the flesh.

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Note added at 17 mins (2021-07-20 13:31:02 GMT)
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It wasn't just the Victorians who might have been shocked or offended by depictions of the naked human form.

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Note added at 20 mins (2021-07-20 13:34:12 GMT)
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https://cantorfoundation.org/exhibitions/rodin-bronzes-sculp...

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Note added at 24 mins (2021-07-20 13:37:55 GMT)
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If you look at the image on the link, the legs akimbo sculpture does seem to be rather "in your face", which perhaps explains the "carne viva" caveat.
Example sentence:

Iris is depicted with her right hand clasping her right foot and her naked body

Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris,_Messenger_of_the_Gods

Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : Maybe, but you need Spanish references. Why not just "nuda"?//You may know, but I don't. You're just saying take it from me, this is the right answer :-)
4 mins
I don't think we"need" Spanish refs, if we know what it is. Euphemism, that's why.
agree pawlik : If you want to put anything, this is fine. "Carne viva" is a phrase that could appear in a description of the piece - raw flesh or something like that, but not in the title. The sculpture used to be owned by Sylvester Stallone .
9 mins
Interesting. Thanks for the agree :-)
agree Carol Gullidge : If you Google the expression, you do eventually find a text in Collins referring to skinny dipping, which can only mean naked. Rodin's Iris is in fact classed specifically as an "Erotic Nude", which I feel might be slightly more accurate. Still an Agree!
15 mins
Damning with faint praise, eh? That'll do me :-)
neutral Kristina Love : "Carne viva" may be a classy double-entendre reference to nudity, but I think the meaning encompasses more (like capturing vividness, reality, psychology of human condition) See reference.
2 hrs
Overthink things much? All that nuance might not fit on a display card...
agree AllegroTrans : Carne viva = deliberate euphemism?
3 hrs
Ask the Spanish speaker who presumably used it. "Ours not to reason why"....
agree kittilina : I agree with Carol - erotic nude. You can find several catalogues on-line that mention this. However, I think that just "nude" will also do.
23 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "This question generated a lot of response for which I am very grateful. I decided to use "nude" because of the type of document (sales contract). If it had been a catalogue or description from a gallery, I might have chosen differently."
-1
12 mins

active

It mentions a bronze sculpture and messages from the divinity, which are possibly active.

(SP: Se menciona una escultura de bronce con mensajes de la divinidad, que son activos posiblemente.)
Peer comment(s):
disagree Carol Gullidge : Iris was the messenger of the Greek gods: nothing to do with "the divinity", active or otherwise
1 hr
neutral AllegroTrans : I fail to see where your "explanation" comes from
3 hrs
neutral ormiston : What do you mean by 'active' ?
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
25 mins

living flesh

suggestion

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Note added at 29 mins (2021-07-20 13:43:29 GMT)
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https://www.hoyesarte.com/cine/rodin-en-carne-viva_255683/

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Note added at 31 mins (2021-07-20 13:44:39 GMT)
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or - Rodin in the flesh

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Note added at 8 hrs (2021-07-20 21:29:46 GMT)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris,_Messenger_of_the_Gods
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : As this appears in a Contract, the context (and the brackets) suggests rather that this is a type of statue (Erotic Nude) rather than a general description//Sorry, but I can't see anything but an official classification being used in a Purchase Contract
4 hrs
Thanks Carol, but I think the emphasis is on the unconventional nature of the nude
agree O G V : es importante recalcar que es más que un desnudo, carne viva de una diosa plasmada en bronce
5 hrs
Thanks, Oscar!
neutral neilmac : Normally I might agree, but to me it evokes the movie The Blob...:-)
23 hrs
whatever it evokes, that is how it was named and it should actually remain in the original, untranslated!
Something went wrong...
9 hrs

in flesh and blood

.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : this seems like a contradiction in terms - how can a statue be "in flesh and blood"? I do hope not :O))
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
13 hrs

Study of Woman with Legs Apart

Iris, Messenger of the Gods; Another Voice; Study of Woman with Legs Apart; and Eternal Tunnel. The latter title confirms the erotic suggestiveness of the figure’s provocative posture.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2021-07-21 03:14:12 GMT)
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https://www.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/collection/object/NG.S.0125...

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Note added at 14 hrs (2021-07-21 03:43:10 GMT)
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art is it's own judge so....
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : Hmmmh! Perhaps not in the context of a Purchase Contract!
9 hrs
neutral neilmac : Baffled emoji needed for this comment ... :-)
10 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

Exerpt from an article in Spanish that lends context

Representar en bronce la 'carne viva'
Rodin era capaz de usar el bronce para "representar la carne viva" y "expresar estados psicológicos extremos", resumen los organizadores de la muestra, que encuentran es estas características los motivos de la influencia del artista en los artistas de las generaciones posteriores, que consideraban al autor de El pensador —la escultura que pidió que colocaran sobre su tumba— el "eslabón crucial" entre el clasicismo y la modernidad.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2021-07-20 15:35:33 GMT)
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And from an article in English:

Rodin’s ability to use bronze to represent living flesh and his interest in expressing extreme psychological states were highly influential upon younger artists, both in Europe and America. Rodin: The Human Experience reveals why the artist is considered the crucial link between traditional and modern sculpture.

https://portlandartmuseum.org/exhibitions/rodin-the-human-ex...

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Note added at 2 hrs (2021-07-20 16:03:48 GMT)
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Interestingly these two articles are saying the same thing, but I can't tell which one is a translation of the other, because they are both so good.
Reference:

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/2929200/0/rodin-centenario-muerte/

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree O G V : definitely, living flesh. quizá parafrasean una fuente francesa ;)
3 hrs
agree Katarina Peters
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
5 hrs
Reference:

mensajera

como apunta phil, no puede ser sino mensajera

https://mitologiagriega.org/iris/#:~:text=Iris no tenía una ...»%20y%20eiris%20«mensajero».

Iris era una diosa del mar y del cielo: su padre Thaumas «el maravilloso» era un dios marino, y su madre Elektra «el ámbar» era una ninfa de nubes. Para los griegos que habitan en la costa, el arco iris se vio con mayor frecuencia en la distancia entre las nubes y el mar, por lo que se creía que la diosa reponía las nubes de lluvia con agua del mar. Iris no tenía una mitología distintiva propia. En el mito, ella solo aparece como una mensajera que hace recados y generalmente se la describe como una diosa virgen. Su nombre tiene un doble significado, ya que está relacionado con la palabra griega iris «el arco iris» y eiris «mensajero».
Iris está representada en una pintura de un jarrón griego antiguo como una hermosa joven con alas doradas, una vara de heraldo ( kerykeion ) y, a veces, una jarra de agua ( oinochoe ) en ella mano. Por lo general, se la representaba de pie junto a Zeus o Hera, a veces sirviendo néctar de su jarra. Como copero de los dioses, Iris es a menudo indistinguible de Hebe en el arte.

Hermes sería el mensajero
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