Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
as like unto a raft dharmas should be forsaken
Chinese translation:
知论佛法如乘筏者应弃佛法
Added to glossary by
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Jul 28, 2007 14:57
16 yrs ago
English term
as like unto a raft dharmas should be forsaken
English to Chinese
Other
Psychology
Philosophical Discourse
The context:
The following passage is taken from "Knots" written by the British clinical psychiatrist R.D.Laing.
"By those who know the discourse on dharmas
as like unto a raft
dharmas should be forsaken, still more so
no-dharmas
Hearing that dharmas, and still more so, no-dharmas
should be forsaken
some are of the opinion that there is no gate
that is their opinion
there is no way of knowing except to go
through it
The question: as like unto a raft dharmas should be forsaken (9 words)
This question is not easy, I know, but I would like to know if there are different ways to interprete the discourse, so that there might be a proper translation into Chinese for these 9 words in English.
The following passage is taken from "Knots" written by the British clinical psychiatrist R.D.Laing.
"By those who know the discourse on dharmas
as like unto a raft
dharmas should be forsaken, still more so
no-dharmas
Hearing that dharmas, and still more so, no-dharmas
should be forsaken
some are of the opinion that there is no gate
that is their opinion
there is no way of knowing except to go
through it
The question: as like unto a raft dharmas should be forsaken (9 words)
This question is not easy, I know, but I would like to know if there are different ways to interprete the discourse, so that there might be a proper translation into Chinese for these 9 words in English.
Proposed translations
(Chinese)
| 3 | 对那些知道论佛法如同乘筏子一样，佛法应该被遗弃 |
karcsy
|
| 3 | 若果將浮生體驗成「法」的話，應該遠離「法」。 |
Shirley Lao
|
| 3 | 視法界如浮生，法規則可棄 |
pkchan
|
| 3 | 彼岸已到达,承载之物需抛弃 |
servien (X)
|
Proposed translations
2 hrs
Selected
对那些知道论佛法如同乘筏子一样，佛法应该被遗弃
raft => noun 木筏; verb 乘筏子
'By those who know the discourse on dharmas as like unto a raft,
dharmas should be forsaken ,still more so no-dharmas''
对那些知道论佛法如同乘筏子一样，佛法应该被遗弃，更甚的是没有佛法。
I'm not a religious person, but maybe 'come ,see!' is an invitation for people to come & see for yourself (亲身体验）, when you have learned from your experience, 'come,say!‘(有邀请您去宣传之意）。
----------
对那些知道论佛法如同乘筏子一样 --〉when you ride a raft, you allowed yourself to be carried away by the flow of the water. (顺其自然之意）。
--------------
佛法应该被遗弃，更甚的是没有佛法。
我佛即无佛[佛教网论坛] -- Powered By Dvbbs.net,2007-7-16 10:09:58我佛即无佛. 各位，无佛既是我佛，悟得了佛便是无佛，满心佛也是离了佛，佛者，无佛也。万物皆可为佛，却是那物见得了无佛，便是佛。入了尘世久者可见得了那佛，那未染的了尘世者亦识得了佛，佛者，非一念经吃斋便了得的。世间所谓尘缘者，也因是时刻记得 ...
www.zjfj.org/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardID=20&ID=7484&page=12 - 42k - 补充材料 -
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3小时 (2007-07-28 18:09:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid if I explain it may sound more like 老子 and religious people might not like my explanation。
Here goes...
it like 空即是色，色即是空 and 我佛即无佛,无佛即我佛.
Here, it wants to imply dharma as worldly, everything is under dharma.
Based on Chinseshistory books about Chinese religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism,etc.) , they make their teaching
sound ethereal as much as possible.
'By those who know the discourse on dharmas as like unto a raft,
dharmas should be forsaken ,still more so no-dharmas''
对那些知道论佛法如同乘筏子一样，佛法应该被遗弃，更甚的是没有佛法。
I'm not a religious person, but maybe 'come ,see!' is an invitation for people to come & see for yourself (亲身体验）, when you have learned from your experience, 'come,say!‘(有邀请您去宣传之意）。
----------
对那些知道论佛法如同乘筏子一样 --〉when you ride a raft, you allowed yourself to be carried away by the flow of the water. (顺其自然之意）。
--------------
佛法应该被遗弃，更甚的是没有佛法。
我佛即无佛[佛教网论坛] -- Powered By Dvbbs.net,2007-7-16 10:09:58我佛即无佛. 各位，无佛既是我佛，悟得了佛便是无佛，满心佛也是离了佛，佛者，无佛也。万物皆可为佛，却是那物见得了无佛，便是佛。入了尘世久者可见得了那佛，那未染的了尘世者亦识得了佛，佛者，非一念经吃斋便了得的。世间所谓尘缘者，也因是时刻记得 ...
www.zjfj.org/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardID=20&ID=7484&page=12 - 42k - 补充材料 -
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3小时 (2007-07-28 18:09:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid if I explain it may sound more like 老子 and religious people might not like my explanation。
Here goes...
it like 空即是色，色即是空 and 我佛即无佛,无佛即我佛.
Here, it wants to imply dharma as worldly, everything is under dharma.
Based on Chinseshistory books about Chinese religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism,etc.) , they make their teaching
sound ethereal as much as possible.
Note from asker:
| Bingo! 可否顺道问一下，依你的见解，那个 "still more so no-dharmas" 应该如何解读？ |
| 抱歉，你已经翻译了，只是我还不太明白你的解读法。 |
| BTW, Buddhism has never been a religion for me. It is rather a philosophy, an attitude toward life or an empirical social science --- may be a way to live with or a gate to pass through and you never now that there is a way which you live with or that there is a gate you can pass through, like R.D. Laing wrote in his "Knots." There has never been a religious war of buddhists against others, except confrontations in debates among themselves about how to interpret Buddha' teaching. So, don't worry about the so-called "religious people" disliking your explanation. Your interpretation is pretty much to the bull's eye, I would say. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you very much!"
3 hrs
Shirley Lao
Taiwan
Taiwan
Native in Chinese
Specializes in field
Taiwan
In Search of Clarity
Native in: Chinese (Variant: Traditional) 
Works in: English to Chinese, Chinese to English
若果將浮生體驗成「法」的話，應該遠離「法」。
The word "raft" here means "one's self" or "one's life" or "one's existence". Buddhist teachings emphasize "no-self". Therefore, if a person has the notion of "dharma" in his/her mind, then he/she is not considered a free being, but he/she has to depend on the self. As a result, according to Buddism, one should have no-dharma.
(from the hyperlink)
The Lord: Bodhisattvas, great beings have no notion of a dharma, Subhuti, nor a notion of non-dharma. They have no notion or non-
notion at all. For if these Bodhisattvas should have the notion of a dharma, then they would thereby seize on a self, a being, on a soul, on a person. A Bodhisattva should therefore certainly not take up a
dharma, nor a non-dharma. Therefore this saying has been taught by the Tathagata in a hidden sense: “Those who know the discourse on dharma as a raft should forsake dharmas, and how much more so non-dharmas.
I believe such a reference to "dharmas" is related to Laing's notion of "an ontologically secure person".
Dr. R.D. Laing wrote about the difficulty that might be experienced with a sense of integral selfhood and personal identity, of the permanency of things, of the reliability of natural processes, of the substantiality of natural process, of the substantiality of others to transpose himself into a world of an individual whose experiences may be utterly lacking in any unquestionable self-validating certainties. He termed such a person a basically ontologically secure person.
Laing has been considered by some to be an anti-psychiatrist, though he is a psychiatrist. He adopted unconventional theories and therapies for mental disorders. That is, he did not adopt the biological predisposition of mental disorders. He considered that mental disorders are caused by social factors, especially one's family relationships. Just because we are a part of our families, we lose our own selves and follow what our families want us to follow. For example, people suffer from mental disorders possibly because of the double bind with their family.
(from the hyperlink)
The Lord: Bodhisattvas, great beings have no notion of a dharma, Subhuti, nor a notion of non-dharma. They have no notion or non-
notion at all. For if these Bodhisattvas should have the notion of a dharma, then they would thereby seize on a self, a being, on a soul, on a person. A Bodhisattva should therefore certainly not take up a
dharma, nor a non-dharma. Therefore this saying has been taught by the Tathagata in a hidden sense: “Those who know the discourse on dharma as a raft should forsake dharmas, and how much more so non-dharmas.
I believe such a reference to "dharmas" is related to Laing's notion of "an ontologically secure person".
Dr. R.D. Laing wrote about the difficulty that might be experienced with a sense of integral selfhood and personal identity, of the permanency of things, of the reliability of natural processes, of the substantiality of natural process, of the substantiality of others to transpose himself into a world of an individual whose experiences may be utterly lacking in any unquestionable self-validating certainties. He termed such a person a basically ontologically secure person.
Laing has been considered by some to be an anti-psychiatrist, though he is a psychiatrist. He adopted unconventional theories and therapies for mental disorders. That is, he did not adopt the biological predisposition of mental disorders. He considered that mental disorders are caused by social factors, especially one's family relationships. Just because we are a part of our families, we lose our own selves and follow what our families want us to follow. For example, people suffer from mental disorders possibly because of the double bind with their family.
Note from asker:
| Thank you, Shirley! You have solved my doubts with "no-dharmas": "諸法皆空，自由自在" which should be the essence of "no-dharmas." |
3 hrs
視法界如浮生，法規則可棄
採果集《泰戈爾》 - -詩歌欣賞- 网民之家-全球最大网民中文社區| 若您 ...- 簡 - [ 轉為繁體網頁 - Translate this page ]我緊緊依附著這片活生生的木筏＿＿我的軀体，漂流在我塵世歲月的狹窄的小溪。當我渡過這一溪流，木筏便被我拋棄。 以後怎樣呢？ 我不知道那兒的光明和黑暗是否一樣。 ...
ewuu.cn/viewthread.php?tid=34646&highlight= - 32k -
ewuu.cn/viewthread.php?tid=34646&highlight= - 32k -
Note from asker:
| Thanks, PK! You know how I feel with this stuff. |
11 hrs
彼岸已到达,承载之物需抛弃
Ludwig wittgenstein has said that language is like the ladder to the reality, when we reach the reality, we can throw the ladder away.
Did you want to mean the same idea?
Did you want to mean the same idea?
Discussion
Some people would regard Buddhism a religion while people like me would take Buddha's teaching a philosophy, an empirical science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_(Buddhism)
The most interesting part in the referred link is the "Qualities of Buddha Dharma." One of those qulitities is "Ehipassiko" which means "Come, see!" and another one is "Svākkhāto" which means something like "Come, say!" So, with "Come, see!" and "Come, say!", Dharma is to "be tested by practice and therefore he who follows it will see the result by himself through his own experience."
Well, I would appreciate anyone very much if he/she could help me "comme si, comme ça" shedding some light into Dharma.
ewuu.cn/viewthread.php?tid=34646&highlight= - 32k -