| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Testing bricklayers, plumbers and translators Thread poster: Milos Prudek
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Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 17:58
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
PRen wrote:
Agencies just need to be more thorough in their approach to picking translators.
[Edited at 2009-03-12 20:43 GMT]
I have all the necessary credentials, excellent references by relevant professional referees, I passed the test each time, with a very high score, I got the highest praises on my tests and performance, then I've been added to their data base - of course, only to never hear back from them again. The test translation was usually followed by an announcement of a soon-to-be huge project that, of course, never happened, with any of them.
On the other hand, all the agencies that actually hired me, and I did projects for them, and had an excellent cooperation with them - they never asked for any test translation - my work samples, references and resume were simply enough for them.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 17:58
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
Do you know many freelance lawyers?
Being a freelancer in a freelance market does not really justify the chaotic and unregulated behavior, by any of the parties involved. Regulations are a must - even in the freelance market. Freelance market does not really mean that anyone can do whatever they wish, such as asking for free expert work ( yes, (test) translation by a professional, qualified translator is expert work ).
[Edited at 2009-03-12 21:05 GMT]
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 10:58
Greek to English
+ ...
| No free lance lawyers??? | Mar 12, 2009 |
"Do you know many freelance lawyers?"
More than 60% of Lawyers in the United States my friend, are free lance.
Do you want more examples?
Asking an architect (yes, most are free lancers) to "draw just one room of a house" for free.
etc etc.
I'm not opposed to small tests, not at all. Provided, of course, that there will be a feedback process, and not just a "behind the curtain editing by a 22 year old gum chewing editor whi... See more "Do you know many freelance lawyers?"
More than 60% of Lawyers in the United States my friend, are free lance.
Do you want more examples?
Asking an architect (yes, most are free lancers) to "draw just one room of a house" for free.
etc etc.
I'm not opposed to small tests, not at all. Provided, of course, that there will be a feedback process, and not just a "behind the curtain editing by a 22 year old gum chewing editor while the project manager doesn't speak the language".
Most test evaluations are not documented (as is 99% of editing work on this planet), therefore unreliable. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laura Tridico
United States
Local time: 11:58
French to English
+ ...
| Lawyers almost always give free consultations... | Mar 12, 2009 |
I know, I used to be one.
When starting a relationship with a new client, there's almost always an initial meeting to discuss the potential representation. The client has a chance to discuss the details of the case or the transaction and decide whether to proceed. A lawyer generally prepares for the meeting and may need to do some research, in order to advise the potential client how to proceed, with no guarantee whatsoever, that the client will engage their services. It's part of m... See more I know, I used to be one.
When starting a relationship with a new client, there's almost always an initial meeting to discuss the potential representation. The client has a chance to discuss the details of the case or the transaction and decide whether to proceed. A lawyer generally prepares for the meeting and may need to do some research, in order to advise the potential client how to proceed, with no guarantee whatsoever, that the client will engage their services. It's part of marketing, and it's how business is done. The fees begin to accrue after the retainer letter is signed.
Whether or not to take a translation test is a personal choice. Depending on whether I'm interested in the agency, I'm occasionally willing to take a short test in a specific subject area. I can certainly understand an agency's interest in checking a translator's style and ability before assigning significant work. Other translators don't care to do so, and don't find it necessary when building their business. But many professions provide some degree of free service prior to launching a business relationship, so this argument against translation tests is a red herring.
Laura
Edited to say I'm speaking of legal practice in the U.S...
[Edited at 2009-03-13 01:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 17:58
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| not so in my experience | Mar 12, 2009 |
Laura Tridico wrote:
When starting a relationship with a new client, there's almost always an initial meeting to discuss the potential representation.
I don't have much experience with lawyers - as a client.. But just one time when I visited a lawyer's office, just for a legal advice ( I was a new client, and it was just an initial meeting, and the potential representation ).. she gave me a piece of advice, explained shortly what I was supposed to do for my particular issue, and when I headed toward the door she told me to stop for she must be paid, because what she told me was a professional advice. I paid her, after which she told me she couldn't represent me, because she is overloaded with work, but she would gladly recommend some of her colleagues to me. I kindly asked her not to, because I couldn't afford the list of her colleagues that she would certainly charge too, I'm pretty sure. And I respect that. It's her own professional time. That's why I want other people to respect my professional time as well.
[Edited at 2009-03-12 23:27 GMT]
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 10:58
Greek to English
+ ...
"Lawyers almost always give free consultations... "
It's a consultation, not a test. You' re not testing the lawyer, he's just proposing a method of action... these so called "free consultations" are already PRICED in the lawyer's fee (usually lawyers charge a retainer, but even if they don't, they' re so expensive that you' re wondering whether you' re actually paying for all these consultations).
Practically every professional gives an initial "consultation" (we will... See more "Lawyers almost always give free consultations... "
It's a consultation, not a test. You' re not testing the lawyer, he's just proposing a method of action... these so called "free consultations" are already PRICED in the lawyer's fee (usually lawyers charge a retainer, but even if they don't, they' re so expensive that you' re wondering whether you' re actually paying for all these consultations).
Practically every professional gives an initial "consultation" (we will call this consultation "to get to know each other and make sure that I, as a professional, am confortable with your case").
Not a test.
[Edited at 2009-03-13 02:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | On education... | Mar 13, 2009 |
PRen wrote:
Yes, I know - lots of Proz members think silly things like and education and certification are unnecessary...
I agree with you, but translation is an industry in which a huge amount of active professionals come from other industries and initially lacked training in translation. For a number of personal reasons, most cannot/will not go to college to learn the new career from the beginning.
I agree that, if you come from another industry, you should make an effort to get as much translation training as possible and try to be certified in translation in some way, but you cannot ban translators who don't have a degree in languages or translation... people coming from other industries are necessary in translation because they have real technical knowledge that is also vital in this industry.
| | | | Stuart Dowell
Poland
Local time: 17:58
Member (2007)
Polish to English
+ ...
| Finding analogies is a waste of time | Mar 13, 2009 |
Ok, say you can find some professions in which it is unusual to take a test such as a lawyer writing one free test contract or an architect drawing one free room.
If you search you will aslo find professions in which tests are normal, for example a chef wanting to work in a restaurant may be asked to cook some of his dishes as a test.
In fact any kind of formal job interview is a test to a certain degree. It would certainly be a nuisance if every time I wanted to start... See more Ok, say you can find some professions in which it is unusual to take a test such as a lawyer writing one free test contract or an architect drawing one free room.
If you search you will aslo find professions in which tests are normal, for example a chef wanting to work in a restaurant may be asked to cook some of his dishes as a test.
In fact any kind of formal job interview is a test to a certain degree. It would certainly be a nuisance if every time I wanted to start cooperation with a new agency I had to appear for an interview in London, Brussels or New York!
A lot of the discussion on this forum is about how many terrible translators there are out there giving the good ones a bad reputation and bringing rates down etc. Surely tests are one way to weed out some of the low quality translators? ▲ Collapse
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 17:58
French to German
+ ...
call test translations and other jobs in which there are some IP issues involved (drawing a logo, suggesting the name of a new product) for free speculative work - aka spec.
And one of my favourite slogans about spec is the one created by a graphic designer. It reads "Here is a NOtion: show some reSPECt".
Laurent K.
[Edited at 2009-03-13 09:24 GMT]
| | | | Milos Prudek
Czech Republic
Local time: 17:58
English to Czech
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | apples and oranges | Mar 13, 2009 |
If you search you will aslo find professions in which tests are normal, for example a chef wanting to work in a restaurant may be asked to cook some of his dishes as a test.
You compare apples and oranges. A job interview for a permanent position with a monthly salary is not a "maybe we will send you a big job in the future" translaton agency.
I would gladly perform a test translation were I ever to apply for an in-house permanent translation job.
| | | | Igor Indruch
Czech Republic
Local time: 17:58
English to Czech
| Tests are usually nonsense... | Mar 13, 2009 |
As mentioned above, there are many ways how to choose good translator other than tests. I already had a post here, where I was discussing that tests can be in fact very counterproductive - if the agency does not have its own very reliable proof-reader. According to my experience, it is quite common practice to let several translators do a test and then let them to review each others work - really funny, isn't it?
Nevertheless I do a test from time to time when I am in the mood of doing it... See more As mentioned above, there are many ways how to choose good translator other than tests. I already had a post here, where I was discussing that tests can be in fact very counterproductive - if the agency does not have its own very reliable proof-reader. According to my experience, it is quite common practice to let several translators do a test and then let them to review each others work - really funny, isn't it?
Nevertheless I do a test from time to time when I am in the mood of doing it. My personal attitude towards tests is as to lottery – you buy a ticket (do a test) perfectly aware that there is very little chance you would win. But sometimes you can be lucky
On the other hand, a test can be useful for translator - for instance when the test is from a new field, so in such case a translator has an opportunity to test himself/herself whether or not he/she is capable to enter this field. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Igor Indruch
Czech Republic
Local time: 17:58
English to Czech
| Architects... | Mar 13, 2009 |
Asking an architect (yes, most are free lancers) to "draw just one room of a house" for free....
well, it may depend on country, but here it is quite common that architects do in fact quite a lot work for free - because quite often there are tenders and competitions. And not only drawings are required, but also 3D models, technical documentation etc... Sometimes an architect receives some compensation even if he does not win, sometimes not...
on the other hand - when architect wins such tender, his/her reward is usually much much better than that of a translator
[Edited at 2009-03-13 08:32 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-03-13 08:34 GMT]
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Stuart Dowell wrote:
A lot of the discussion on this forum is about how many terrible translators there are out there giving the good ones a bad reputation and bringing rates down etc. Surely tests are one way to weed out some of the low quality translators?
They are not foolproof, of course, but yes, I would imagine that this is precisely one reason why the practice started. As I said before, I believe agencies ask for tests because translation is an activity that lends itself to the practice and we would all do more of it if it were simple to organise and arrange. To that, I suppose we should add that agencies also ask for tests because they feel the need to, to try to check people can do what they say (and incidentally, once again, proper specialisation would tend to make this need less likely, since, e.g. relevant samples might well be sufficient to prove expertise).
And yes, Stuart is bang on, most analogies between translation and other professions we see made on here fail to stand up to any kind of close scrutiny. It would be more useful for us to examine the economics and business practices of the industry from a logical point of view, and ask how and why they arise (and what if anything we can do to change it), rather than just constantly bleating about various unrelated professions that do not have to jump through the hoops or suffer the ignominies that we do.
So, some lawyers give free consultations and some don't... earth shattering stuff - but really, in order to argue the point being made, we just needed to know that there are some that do. Not quite the same, of course, since all lawyers need to belong to professional bodies that will chuck them out if they mess things up too often, although I suppose that safety net is scant consolation if you are rotting in prison.... Come to think of it, some members of other professions go down the free consultation route too - interior designers, for example - but is a consultation really the same as free test? I'm also given to understand that some graphic designers will also do "free work" under some circumstances, to get a foot in the door. But ultimately, as I hinted above, so what if they do? They are not translators.
| | | | | The test also tests other aspects... | Mar 13, 2009 |
...needed in our industry, like delivery at the time agreed for the delivery of the test, timely communication, capability to detect and report problems (intentional, in the case of a test) in the source document, ability to ask questions upfront before starting the job, terminology research capabilities, etc., all things that are not immediately apparent from a CV.
It's not just about translating a document: it's testing the whole ability and attitude of the translator, so tests ma... See more ...needed in our industry, like delivery at the time agreed for the delivery of the test, timely communication, capability to detect and report problems (intentional, in the case of a test) in the source document, ability to ask questions upfront before starting the job, terminology research capabilities, etc., all things that are not immediately apparent from a CV.
It's not just about translating a document: it's testing the whole ability and attitude of the translator, so tests makes total sense. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Igor Indruch
Czech Republic
Local time: 17:58
English to Czech
| Another funny thing... | Mar 13, 2009 |
..is, that some agencies who reguire test finally do not pick a translator with best results, but with lowest rates I know that, because I am quite often asked to do a proof-reading - and sometimes I can't believe my eyes...
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